The Hidden System Secretly Running 90% of Your Day, with Alan Bodnar | #644

Agi Keramidas
(0:00) 90% of your day is being driven by a system you didn't even know was in control. Today, we are learning how to take the wheel. Welcome to Personal Development Mastery, the podcast that helps you gain clarity, overcome what holds you back, and take confident next steps towards a more meaningful and aligned life. I am your host, Aggie Keramidas, a personal development mentor and coach, and this is episode 644. If you are looking to understand why you react the way you do, and finally, interrupt the patterns that keep repeating in your life, this conversation explores how our automatic and conscious systems work together, and how deliberate attention lets us take the wheel back. If you are tired of reacting the same way to stress, frustration, or old habits, and want to understand what is actually driving that, then this episode is for you. Let's dive right in. Today, my guest is Alan Budnar. Alan, for a decade, while you were climbing the corporate ladder by day, you spent your evenings working through over 500 books on neuroscience, mindfulness, quietly building the framework that would become your book, The Self-Driving You. You now help people take the wheel with their own inner driver, so that they can rewire their brain for greater balance and success in their life. Alan, welcome to the show. It's a real pleasure to speak with you today.

Alan Bodnar
(1:52) I am very happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Agi.

Agi Keramidas
(1:56) I'm looking forward to exploring with you and helping someone understand and realize how to recognize when you are on autopilot, because most of the times it goes completely unnoticed. And we will also discuss about some techniques to interrupt it and become more aware and think clearer, make better decisions as a result of that. So, it is, I think, a truly fascinating and useful topic. What I will begin with, before I go there, is I was reading in your story that you were reading during, while you were working full-time, you were spending 20 to 40 hours a week listening to audio books, writing your own book. So, how did you find the discipline on top of a busy life, a full-time job, etc., to spend so much time in doing that?

Alan Bodnar
(3:01) Luckily, I had the pain of not feeling fulfilled at my regular 9 to 5 career job. And that pain was the motivation to do whatever I could to try to change that. And that's really where that motivation came from. And whenever work got really difficult or challenging, as I continued to move up the corporate ladder, I would just get more motivation to continue writing. And that was really the catalyst for everything was just the pain I felt from work. And then, okay, the only thing that can change that is to write and to listen to books. So, just keep doing that. And that's how I was able to do that. After hours, well, basically every second that was available was spent just toward this endeavor of writing the book.

Agi Keramidas
(3:59) What did you give up to make that time? Because I understand the pain as the motivator, of course, but there are some, let's say, biological limits to what we can do. Did you have to give something up to make that time?

Alan Bodnar
(4:15) Yeah. Luckily, my wife works a lot as well. We're both pretty focused on whatever that thing is that we're passionate about. And luckily, we both have that in common, where we are following our passion and we're supporting that. So, that's really good where that also consumes her time. So, we're both able to say, oh, you're going to do that? Okay, well, I'll do this. And then we're able to make that time in between, while still, like you said, trying to prioritize life and everything else. But it's always every spare moment that I had was just go to writing. But you can be flexible. It's funny how much time there is in a day. If you're strategic over your time, and you're just... I'm a planner. So, I plan every second out the day before. So, I think it's more just that. And then the whole concept was in a week. So, in a week, I want to spend 10 hours. And 10 hours of listening to the book and 10 hours of writing. That was the goal from the beginning. And then, as you mentioned, that increased to 20 hours to 40 hours a week. But the whole idea was looking at it in a week and saying, 10 hours is all I need to do towards writing this week. And then that was really it. Because you can do an hour Monday, an hour Tuesday, an hour Wednesday, and it all adds up. And then the weekend is where you can get in a big chunk of time. So, it was really just that I had the motivation of pain and then just strategically finding any time throughout my week. And I'll say that was it. But it sounds easier than it is.

Agi Keramidas
(6:03) I think... Yes, of course, it does. But once someone understands what happens and it is very nice to see the week as a total of hours and allocate those hours. So, once someone does that as a practice also to manage their time and realize where the time goes unnoticed, it's very important. Let's not go into time management though. I would really like to discuss about this self-driving metaphor that you use for life for most people. And you talk about it being similar to being a driver, not a driver really, the person inside a self-driving vehicle. So, it is... You are still there behind the steering wheel, but the vehicle does the steering. So, I find this metaphor fascinating. So, walk us through it. Explain how this works and how it is related to the autopilot that we started talking about earlier. And then we'll bring it all together.

Alan Bodnar
(7:15) Okay, perfect. Yeah. So, quickly, the whole metaphor is that we are, as you said, this conscious driver behind the wheel of the human vehicle. And it does up to 90% of the driving. And we're there as a supervisor that basically monitors and questions what it does. And we step in whenever we want. We're there to decide whether we want to step in or not. And then we can. This whole idea comes from what's called dual process theory. So, that has been popularized in the book by Daniel Kahneman. And the book is Thinking Fast and Slow. So, that's the foundation of this whole metaphor. And basically, what that says is we have two systems that process information in the brain and together they create our reality. So, this first system is System 1. It's always on. And it's always scanning the environment and providing the first response to all we encounter. And that includes emotions, habits, beliefs, opinions, and behaviors. So, a lot of the first thoughts we have come from the System 1. And then we have System 2. System 2 is who we identify with as I. But it's not always on. It turns on intermittently. And when it is engaged, when it is active, we have the ability to plan, monitor, deliberate, problem solve, and exercise self-control. So, that's System 2. That's basically our executive functioning or executive ability. And that's what I equate to consciousness, the System 2. So, basically, the way it fits into the metaphor is System 1 is the self-driving system. It's always on. It's doing 90% of the driving. And we're the conscious driver at the who is there to supervise. And we decide whether to go with it or not. So, any of these decisions at any time, there is a way for us to not go with it and to override these responses. But we've grown so accustomed to it, we don't even notice that we have this other system providing our first response. And we align with it and agree with it. And I don't know about everyone else. But for me, at least up until I was 30, I was asleep at the wheel because I aligned with everything my self-driving system said. So, I never challenged it. I never took the wheel from it. And my life was heading in the direction it was heading. There's nothing wrong with that. That's just where I was. And then by listening to books, by writing and coming up with this framework, I started to challenge these ideas and challenge my self-driving system. And then I realized that I was able to take the wheel and change basically the whole direction of my life. And it wasn't as personal as I thought. Mm-hmm.

Agi Keramidas
(10:34) It's indeed a great way of looking at it. And personally, I have not been inside a driverless or a self-driving vehicle. But I can imagine how it may be once I do that. And I think anyone watching us or listening us can imagine how it can be at times scary to give control. But on the other hand, and I will go to that actually, because you said, you used the word supervisor, that we are like a supervisor of the system that is always on, as you said. So, one question that came to me very clearly when you were describing the second system, which is intermittent, it's not always on like the others, the automatic, is how can one activate, I will use that word, activate that system that become more conscious to step in, you said, step in and change the direction of vehicle or whatever setting to stick with the metaphor is there. So, how can one activate this intermittent system more often so that they can be more in control?

Alan Bodnar
(12:05) So, great question. System two is an executive function, as I said, that's our executive circuits. And these activate roughly through attention. So, anytime attention is engaged, our conscious driver is roughly engaged. What that means, though, is that as our self-driving system, as we're living our life, our attention is constantly being cued. And we can put our attention on something. But a lot of times when we do that, we dismiss it. We'll look at something, oh, yeah, that's fine. And then let our self-driving system do its driving again. So, we align with it, it can be engaged. But if we agree with what's going on, then it can just be quickly dismissed and we just let it go. So, the whole idea is attention. But our self-driving system has what's called an attentional filter. So, that can cue our attention. It's almost as though if we were in this self-driving car as it's driving, it would have an alarm that would get our attention for us to take the wheel anytime it's stuck. So, our human vehicle has a similar way of doing that through attention. But also, we have our executive circuits. And they don't develop until we are into our mid to late 20s. But what these executive circuits allow us to do is to deliberately turn on and direct our attention. So, at any time, yes, I have a self-driving system that determines much of what I pay attention to or when attention is activated. And at the same time though, I can direct my attention to anything else. So, at any time, I can direct my attention. And attention, where attention goes, neural patterns grow. So, wherever attention goes throughout our day, every moment, patterns are being formed in the brain. With repetition, these become the automatic functions that end up driving us. And the answer then is deliberate attention is how we are able to strategically take the wheel with our driver and pay attention to what it is doing and to challenge these responses and come up with the response that serves us. And that's really, it's deliberate attention is the way that we take the wheel and question.

Agi Keramidas
(14:48) One thing that I have experienced, I suppose you have also, and I bet that someone listening also has, is that ability to put deliberately our attention on what we want, it is not something that necessarily comes easily. And what I mean by that is that the autopilot is really has taken over and we are probably distracted or going along with the autopilot. And especially in situations that are stressful or are, let's say, emotionally charged, that ability to deliberately bring our attention to what we want is less. I suppose you understand what I mean. So I wanted to hear how can one improve or hone that ability? Are there some techniques, some practices that one can do so once the need arises to become very aware of the situation rather than keep on going on autopilot to be able to do it at that time?

Alan Bodnar
(16:07) That is a very good point because that is the challenge is that we're so accustomed to just being on autopilot where we have this strategy of deliberate attention. But just because you have that, it doesn't mean that we're good at holding that attention and overriding the self-driving system, as you said. And that's what's so difficult because yes, it's possible. But what we need to do is strengthen this executive ability to be able to take control and to not do what it tells us to do all the time. So that would go with habits of drinking coffee or whatever your habit may be, your anger, your frustration, rage. These responses are emotions. These come from our self-driving system. And they're very difficult to not do because again, we're self-driving. So our system has already had the thought based on a cue in the environment, we're going to do this. It could be watch TV, it could get mad if someone cuts you off while you're driving. And we agree like, yeah, let's yell. We're not really that motivated or enthused about the yelling. We usually get upset with the yelling after but that's a self-driving response. And then as you mentioned, we're not great at being able to override that. And that's because we're not used to doing it. So the way to do that is not only deliberate attention, but the strategy that I provide in my book is mindfulness, but it's looking at mindfulness as a mental training exercise. So it doesn't have to be mindfulness, but basically, it's deliberately directing your attention towards something that's neutral and positive to disrupt the self-driving pattern, telling us to get angry to get mad. So noticing first parts awareness of noticing this is a response from my self-driving system that may not serve me. And then deliberately placing your attention on something neutral or positive. And for me, that's mindfulness, because I can go to my breath. A lot of these responses are prone to sympathetic acceleration. And that's our the human bodies are the self-driving systems accelerator. And when I go to my breath, and I slow my breath, which is mindfulness, I can disrupt that. So now my attention is on my breath and not on whatever the self-driving system said. And when I do that, and I slow my breath, I can trigger the parasympathetic system, which is our relaxation, rest and digest response. So that's the break. So at any time, I can do that, in theory. And I know this, even right now, I stopped drinking coffee this week, and I've been trying not to drink it for a year. But this week, this week, I was able to do it. And this week, this strategy worked. But I tried that through all the other weeks, and it doesn't work. It works better for rage and frustration, like I've been able to implement it for that. But there's some patterns that we have that are more difficult to override than others. So this whole idea of going to our attention and applying the break is great, and it works. But at the same time, we have to strengthen our ability to be able to do that. We have to practice that. And by going to the breath repeatedly to interrupt responses in real time as they happen, then we can slowly develop our driver's supervisory ability. But these are circuits that need to be tuned in the brain. So as I mentioned, with our executive driver, we have the ability to exercise self-control. But self-control, that's what we're talking about here. But if we're not used to that, it's kind of a pattern that we need to tune. And that's where the mental training aspect of mindfulness comes in. Because we're training our driver, we're training our executive to basically not get driven around by our self-driving thoughts, and to learn how to take the wheel, apply the break, and provide an alternative response that may serve us better. But all of this takes a lot of time and mental training, and it doesn't happen overnight. So I really like that question.

Agi Keramidas
(20:58) Thank you for the answer. I liked very much the way you described mindfulness as a mental training exercise. And the way I understood what you said, and I will repeat it in my own words, just like the practice, the way for someone to strengthen this executive ability to step in when the autopilot is doing their thing, is practice deliberately putting our attention throughout the day, but especially on moments that there is some tension, to place our attention. You said something neutral or positive. I take breath, something very easy to put our attention on, because we have it with us all the time. And sometimes for me personally, it's easier to bring my attention to my breath rather than putting it on some positive thought, because it can be abstract or more difficult for me. The breath is already there and it is in the body, so I can utilize it as a way to get back into the awareness of what is happening better. So I liked very much from your answer the clarification that it is a practice, it takes a while, it's not something that one can master immediately. You have to rewire, I think that's what you said, or retrain our brain to be able to have more strength in this particular ability. I don't know if you wanted to add something to that. That was my own interpretation in a practical way, perhaps, of how one can do it, perhaps simplify it.

Alan Bodnar
(23:04) That was perfect. That's exactly it. Basically, it sounds too simple, but we're not engaging our consciousness or our driver to challenge our self-driving system. Because of that, those circuits are weak and mindfulness, placing our attention on our breath and sustaining our attention on our breath, and using that when we're interrupting self-driving responses and we stay unmoved, that is mental training to build up the skill for us to be able to take the wheel and stay unmoved. It's so funny because I apply everything we're talking about to my life, as you mentioned, going to the breath. That's why I like the breath. The answer is to not do. My self-driving system will say, turn on the TV, have coffee, and I just don't want to do it. But it's so difficult just to not do. Just don't do that. And these are circuits that need to be trained in the brain. And it's not personal. I think that's the thing. We personalize these. In the past, I would get upset with myself when I would do the things that I don't consciously want to do. But then I would remind myself, it's not personal self-driving. I'm not hurting anyone except for myself in my own mind. So just continue practicing, continue going to the breath, continue, because we're going to fail before we don't fail, because we're self-driving. So we're going to do the things that we don't want to do before we can train that circuitry to not do them. So it's really just looking at it with no expectations and to think it's all just, we're getting to know ourselves better. Because we really, we live in our bodies our whole lives, but we don't know ourselves. At least I didn't know myself at all. And that was the big thing. It's all these behaviors that you become aware of. And yeah, so it's just making peace with it's mental training. It's going to take time, like if we're learning to play an instrument or something, and just have some grace with yourself. But slowly, but surely, if you do go to your breath and attention, you can train your attention, you can train your ability to be able to override the self-driving system. It's possible. But yeah, like learning any skill, it takes a lot of time and attention and practice.

Agi Keramidas
(25:47) I like what you said about realizing that it's not personal. And because some people might think that there is something wrong, that they can't do it. That's why I liked the description, it's not personal. And then you said, have some grace with ourselves, because it is important not to feel guilty or beat ourselves down for not being able to brake the autopilot when we want to. But it is a matter of getting better at it, and better and better. And eventually, those moments of awareness become more and more frequent. I'm not going to take it any further, but it is just a matter of, coming back to what I started my comment on, the fact that this is not personal. It is how our mind operates.

Alan Bodnar
(26:51) Yeah. Yeah, I've done it with so many responses. Like if I get angry throughout the day, I'll go to my breath. And then I can calm down. But then there's some times where I don't, there's sometimes I get angry, and I'm like, go to your breath. And then the self-driving system, no, no, you're mad. And I'm mad. Try going to your breath again. So yeah, it's all just an experiment. And over time, we can change that.

Agi Keramidas
(27:18) It's really something that most of us can relate. I certainly can with the example that you just said. Alan, for someone who has listened to us so far and really enjoys what we're discussing, what's the best place for someone to find you and to look at what you do and connect with you?

Alan Bodnar
(27:46) Yeah, I have my website which is theselfdrivingyou.com and on there it provides more information about myself and then there's a contact form so feel free to reach out to me and then there is a link to the book. It's also available on Amazon and Audible and all of these ideas, everything is in the book, The Self-Driving You, so that's where if you wanted the full story, it's written as a four-hour guide or mental training manual for us to just get the information we need and then start to apply it to our life. So it's really building an awareness around understanding how automatic we are and that these responses are not personal and then how we can engage our conscious driver to take the wheel and what we can do with that. We can rewire our self-driving system to drive with greater balance, we can also use them to wire the brain toward mastery and our potential. So that's where all the information is found.

Agi Keramidas
(28:54) I want to thank you very much for the conversation we had today, Alan. I find it practical because it might not, it is quite simple, you know, as a technique to stop and focus on your, bring your attention deliberately on the breath. It is very simple, but it's not easy and it is, I think, important to repeat it and understand it that this is the way to regain control of, and I will come back to the metaphor because I really, I think it is a very appropriate metaphor that you describe being the conscious person behind the wheel of a self-driving car and just saying it right now myself, it gave me again the visual of what it might be like and I think it is very useful to apply that metaphor in someone's life and see what's going on, what is, where in my life am I completely allowing my vehicle to drive me and I just look outside of the window rather than paying attention to what is happening and when is the time to really apply the system to that you were saying and change the direction. So I think it might be very simple to, you know, understand it intellectually, but it is not easy to apply it practically and become a master of your attention and your mind and all these things, but I think Alan, you and I and I think the person listening right now, they are on this journey to master themselves. So that's why and that was a very long-winded way to say thank you again for this conversation. I find it very useful. I want to wish you all the very best with your, everything that you do and your contribution to elevate others. I will leave it to you for your parting words and any last message you want to share with the listener of this conversation.

Alan Bodnar
(31:19) Thank you, Agi, and I think as well just thanks for having me on Personal Development Mastery. I appreciate your platform and the conversation and I think it's best just to leave on what you mentioned is it's simple in theory and difficult in practice, but at least now I found that when I was first learning the theory wasn't as easy because the there's so many different books and there's so many ideas about the brain. So that was my main goal is to try to make something that is simple in theory so that we can understand and maybe that can serve as the catalyst for being able to take the wheel because we definitely need motivation and something that helps us keep doing it because it's difficult in practice. So it takes a lot to show up and to constantly try to question these thoughts and I think the last thing that you mentioned is just questioning these things because yeah some of these automatic self-driving responses are good. So it's not to say that they're all bad. So some of them do serve us. It's more of like you mentioned having a curiosity around which ones serve us and which ones don't and then trying to take the wheel against the ones that may not serve us and then we can rewire our brain because through plasticity it's just whatever we think and do most. So we're kind of just controlling that process and we're as you mentioned as well retraining our self-driving system.

Agi Keramidas
(32:55) Thank you for listening to this conversation with Alan Bodnar. I hope it has given you a new perspective on how much of your day runs on autopilot. One practical action tip to remember from today is next time you feel anger or frustration rising, don't respond straight away. Bring your attention to your breath, slow it down for a few seconds and let that small pause be the moment you take the wheel back rather than letting the reaction drive you. Join us every Monday for in-depth conversations and every Thursday for shorter episodes with insights and tools you can use. If you find the podcast useful and appreciate the work we're doing here the simple favor I'm asking of you is to click the subscribe button. Until next time stand out don't fit in.