#316 Unravelling the art of living well and how to die happy, with Martin O'Toole (part 1).

EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION

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Martin O'Toole  0:00  
If you can actually see past the illusion of what life is positioned as, and genuinely then learn these incredible skills of acceptance, awareness, presence, gratitude, the the alchemy of mindfulness if you like, then you're living in a different way.

Agi Keramidas  0:25  
You're listening to personal development mastery, empowering you with the simple and consistent actions needed to master personal development and create a life of purpose and abundance. I'm your host, ID Keramidas. And my mission is simple to inspire you to take action towards a purposeful and fulfilling life. In this podcast, I invite myself inside the minds of remarkable entrepreneurs, authors, thought leaders, spiritual teachers. So if you're ready to find practical insights that you can implement right now, make sure you follow the podcast and get the episodes as soon as they are released. Today's episode is about the art of living well, and how to die happy. Today, I am delighted to speak with Martin or tool, Martin, you are, as you say, a man on the mend. You were a high functioning alcoholic atman for over 20 years who eventually left your hectic existence in London to live a mindful life in Indonesia, you have been tucked out of a suicide attempt by your dog. And this rock bottom moment launched the phenomenal journey of self healing and personal transformation during which you discovered the alchemy of everlasting happiness, what you call the anatomy of happy. You recently published your first book, How to die happy where you offer curated wisdom stories and utilities for the art of living. Martin, welcome to Personal Development mastery. I'm delighted to speak with you today.

Martin O'Toole  2:16  
Likewise, hey, Aggie, how are you? And thanks for having me.

Agi Keramidas  2:21  
I'm very well I'm very excited for this conversation and be looking forward to it your, your book, and I will just say that straight from the beginning of the conversation, it does indeed offer an approach that gives so many teachings you have combined Ancient Wisdom Teachings, modern and old, then you have presented some a beautiful book that gives also practical things for the, for the reader to do. So. I started with with this. And you know, I'm just saying that I'm looking forward to having a conversation with you about some of the topics in the book.

Martin O'Toole  3:09  
Very kind of you to say did you enjoy the book? I take it.

Agi Keramidas  3:12  
Yeah, very much very much Martin, there were and that was telling you a little before we started recording the word some, especially some bits that caught my attention very much. And I suppose different people will be drawn more to different aspects of the book, because you have covered. I think it's a guy to follow. But let's know before we go into the book, I really want and I always do that on my podcast, I start with some kind of background, some story, some element of my guests journey that really defined them into the person that they are today. And you know, I think for me, and when I was reading in your book, that story where you were about to commit suicide and it was your your dog your Beagle that saved you. I found that a very powerful story. And I would like I would like you know, without going into details of it just to hear the Martin on the two sides of it in the most concise version you can because I think that would give a good understanding of who you are and some somehow how you came here.

Martin O'Toole  4:34  
Sure. Yeah. Well, I, I, my mom was an alcoholic. That's the first thing to say. And she was an alcoholic my whole life. And so I had a very traumatic childhood. And I didn't realise that I was a victim of abuse and ultimately have PTSD. So I carried that on into my into my adulthood. We without having a clue that I was mentally ill. And and this just continue to spiral and spiral, I became a heavy drinker and a drug user quite early on as an alcoholic and cocaine addict probably for around 20 years. And my mom died in 2014. And it was, it was spiralling out of control after she died, where I was, there were many things that were causing me anxiety at the time. But ultimately, I just, I hit rock bottom, and I had got to the point where I'd made such a mess with so many friendships with so many business partners with, with romantic partners. There was there was a scarred landscape of Spilt Milk and to burn bridges everywhere. And, and I just got to the point where I couldn't take it anymore, I was ashamed. I was guilty, I was depressed to the point of paralysis. And I'm sure anyone who listening who's listening to the show now who has known true depression will understand what I mean when you are lost inside, in the centre of that swirling vortex. And there is no way you can get out. And ultimately, I was, before I knew it, I was very drunk already, I was already very high on drugs, I was at home. So I got my shotgun, I cleaned it, and then bizarrely, I loaded it. So it was a double barrel over and under shotgun and I loaded both barrels. Now, anyone who knows anything about gun safety will know that you never ever, ever point, the scary end of a gun, anyone, even if you know it's not loaded. So I found myself with the gun loaded that I just loaded, pointing out my face. And then it came in mentally close to killing myself. And my Beagle talked me out of it, she, she just pushed the slit sitting in the dark living room, and she pushed the door open and shed some light in from the kitchen. And she just stood in the light and then sort of sat down and just looked up at me. And to this day, I still don't know whether that look was don't do it or who's going to feed me. But either way, it was enough for me to just stop, break the barrel, throw the cartridges on the floor and basically cry at my dog. So yeah, it was a it was it was definitely one of a handful of very transitional moments. Not the not the not the last, but certainly the first

Agi Keramidas  7:56  
you have described as I remember you describe it in that what happened in your book, like you were given a second sense, I think, or I think you also use the word, the term metamorphosis of some kind and

Martin O'Toole  8:17  
messy metamorphosis. And

Agi Keramidas  8:20  
it has to be doesn't it I mean, metamorphosis can't be smooth it has you have to dissolve who you are at the previous stage or you know the caterpillar anyway, but I think it is a very good metaphor, and that's why we use it. Something has to dissolve or to die, actually. And you know, there was you have a quote in your book by Eckhart Tolle, which reminded me of something I had read, many years ago when I went to Mount office, the holy mountain in Greece. And there was a big sign on the wall, and it said, if you die before you die, then you won't die when you die. And you know, I was so impressed. I was mesmerised by that, quote, I took a photograph of it. And I was starting to contemplate and I mean, I was in my late 2012, I was not in a personal development journey, but I

Agi Keramidas  9:18  
I was contemplated, or what would that quote mean? And now actually, because I think it's appropriate for you to to ask you, how does that mean to you? What does that phrase die before you die? So that you won't die when you die? Because you have really well, much knowledge and personal experience of that.

Martin O'Toole  9:43  
Yeah, it's a great question. And it's an it's obviously a great prose. I use as you've identified or use something similar by Eckhart Tolle in the book and, and indeed, I talk at length about what I refer to as the gift of love. If within a life and and this, this plays to your question, ultimately, we can if we are not careful spend our entire life not living. Or perhaps it might be more appropriate to say not being. We are born into a system of materialism, of consumerism, of control, where various authorities and organisations and corporations are very keen for us to do certain things, essentially, so that they have control so that they make more money out of us, whatever those those drivers are, we live often in the illusion of freedom, where, actually, if you have kind of a series of events, like like happened to me, then suddenly you're able to step back from it all, and start to see the illusion of life. I'm not saying we all live like this, of course, I'm just saying it's a possibility for so many of us, ultimately, is what I call life on the hamster wheel is what the movie The Matrix really talks about. There's a chapter in the book called was was the matrix A documentary, essentially, making these observations that if we're not careful, very early on, were in encouraged to get ourselves in significant financial debt, go to school, learn a lot of things we're never going to use. But we do also learn how to do as we're told, get onto the hamster wheel into some sort of a career, that for many of us suddenly is immensely unfulfilling. And we give ourselves two, maybe three weeks holiday a year, which is absolutely insane if you think about how hard we work. And then we wait until we're 65 Until we can actually start living. So so this really gets to the to the whole premise. And that is that that is not a life. Now, I'm sure some people would say why it is okay. Yes, it's a degree of it's a degree of living? Of course it is. But it's not. It's not what it could be. It's not all that it can be. And I and I know that from personal experience, and, and just from the simple fact that since I unplugged myself from the matrix, and I left London and moved to Bali, I'm actually surrounded by like minded individuals who have decided, no, that's not the life I want, actually. So so. And there are obviously lots of different ways to do it. So. So it's the idea that if you can actually see past the illusion of what life is positioned as, and genuinely then learn these incredible skills of acceptance, awareness, presence, gratitude, the the alchemy of mindfulness, if you like, then you're living in a different way, when it comes to actually dying. And this is obviously part and parcel of the books concept. The idea is, if you have lived in such a way, then you are most of you are most certain to die with few, to no regrets. And that's the the PRECIS to the book really is talking about research, albeit some anecdotal and some scientific that talks about deathbed regrets. And when you look at these, these regrets, it's actually quite heartbreaking. You know, it's people saying, I wish I had taken better care of my body. I wish I'd said I love you more. I wish I'd spent less time at work and more time with family, I wish I'd had the courage to express my true self. I wish I'd known that happiness was a choice much sooner, that one breaks my heart every time I say it, you know, so these are the these are the things that people are saying when it's too late for them to have that life that they could have had. So the whole premise of the book is to essentially say, we in the West have a bit of a bizarre relationship with death. With permanence. We put it off, we deny it. And in doing so we are also denying the the magic of true living or living well as I like to say.

Agi Keramidas  14:50  
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Agi Keramidas  15:58  
it trick to do it that time. And Martin, I really would like to discuss about death and dying the taboo of all taboos, as you say, in the book. And, you know, the question I want to ask you, and I think it's also a question for everyone to ask themselves, because dying is inevitable, it's fundamental part of life, yet,

Agi Keramidas  16:27  
we are very hesitant to talk about it, which kind of many of us, you know, ignore it or try not to, and you say, Don't be morbid or things like that. So, obviously, we get into that with your book. So I would like to hear your thoughts on why do we have this kind of relationship with with death?

Martin O'Toole  16:53  
Yeah, it's a great question. Well, there are the reality is there are a number of reasons why we, particularly in Western civilization have such a perverse relationship with death. Well, let's look at the let's look at the obvious ones, social conditioning, familial conditioning, religious conditioning, the media, movies, for example, television, we are, we have folklore, of course, telling us about all the scary things and the scary characters involved. When we when we die. And, and depending on on which religion you follow, you're either a one shot Christian who's either going to heaven, hell, or purgatory, or you're a Buddhist who's, who's reincarnating or a Hindu is reincarnating. Right? Actually, I think even Scientologists believe in reincarnation. So there are those obvious factors. The obviously if this stuff is taught to us from a young age, then unfortunately, it's it's ingrained in our psyche. I would say fear plays an absolutely huge role in all of it for everyone, for many reasons, of course, you know, we have as you know, we have a limbic brain system, and inside that is the amygdala, which, which releases hormones to trigger us into fight flight or freeze response, as and when required. And essentially, change is one of the core drivers to that response, we, we we physically, fear change in all its shapes and forms. In fact, there is a condition or the condition of the fear of change is known as meta THEC Oh phobia, which as you all know, comes from the Greek change in fear right, to two words and a word in the middle. So, and for some of us, meta THEC of phobia is is common garden, and then for others, it is crippling, hence the phenomenon of fear paralysis. So for for many of us, we can become anxious we can become stressed we can we can be sleepless, we can literally become gibbering messes. So if you think about the science behind that, it's quite quite fascinating actually, to consider. One of the reasons why we note why we why we put something like death so far push it so far away, is because our brain albeit the lizard brain, and our body tell us that every time we think about something like that, it literally makes us sick. So You know, this is why the ego behaves in the way it behaves in certain situations. So and that's fear, you know, that's the fear response. So but the reality is, yeah, we have a cognitive dissonance around death and it's not something that's shared the world over Aggie that's the thing you know, I live over in, in Indonesia. And the Balinese Hindus embrace death, as do the Buddhists Of course. And I talk about the Buddhists, the Taoist, the Confucian lists and many other ancient philosophies in the book, because I'm very keen to, to resurrect fathom the the religious reference, but to resurrect these incredible teachings that are 1000s of years old, which, in reality, are closer to modern day psychology than any religion that we would, that we would follow. And these, all of these philosophies talk about the the, the ever present existence of death and our bizarre relationship to it, and try to essentially offer up some suggestions of what we can do. Now, as you as you said, death is inevitable. We all know, without a shadow of a doubt that we're going to die. We all know that everyone we know is going to die. So then, it's actually quite bizarre if you think about it, that we're still surprised when someone dies. In fact, the expression unexpected death. Isn't. Isn't that a strange expression? I don't understand. There's no such thing as an unexpected death. Yeah, of course, you might say, Yeah, but you know, she was five when she died. And of course, such a thing is tragic. You know, but still, it's not to be unexpected, because we know, through through our history, that we can die in so many different ways, so many ages, some summer accidents, summer at the hands of someone else, of course, somewhere in the hands of ourselves. And I don't mean to disrespect anyone grieving right now, incidentally, because, of course, it's quite a triggering conversation to have. But then at the same time, I do strongly invite people to ask themselves why they are triggered by such a thing, because this is why we have this societal problem. This is why we can't talk about death, because people immediately have an emotional response to, to it, attaching their own story, oh, you can't talk about death, my mom died. Well, my mom died two years. You it's it's an irrational response to a conversation that the I propose should be had, at a very young age, on mass in public, and it should be encouraged because what the whole point of this book, The premise is to say that if we do not embrace death, then by definition, we are also not embracing life, and we're not. And it's really comes down to the fact that everything in this universe, in this plane, if you like, is subject to the same universal law of impermanence, that is to say, change. In fact, the the one universal constant is in constants. And until we can have grown up on triggered own emotional conversations about these things, we are we will struggle to evolve. That's that's essentially my supposition. And of course, it's not just my supposition I, I've learned this from from Eastern philosophies and for them through life experience, that ultimately, if I can reframe my relationship with with the idea that everything is impermanent, then as the Buddha said, attachment is the root of all suffering. If I can get my head around, some way of living a life of non attachment, not apathy, connection, not clinging, if that makes sense. Then I'm in a significantly healthier place, mentally and spiritually. And I'm not surprised when someone dies. No cause will I grieve, of course, I'll grieve because we are emotional beings we are you know, we humans are in a human experience. And we are, we are still subject to, to the to the dense layer cake of ego, and all of the emotions and conditionings the conditioning that goes with it. But that's no excuse. You know, we really do have significantly more sovereign control over our emotions than we then we are a led to believe and be, allow ourselves to believe. So that was a really long response to your question. But hopefully, it just sort of probes into some of the areas of, of the book and what I'm trying to talk to talk about to people now.

Agi Keramidas  25:14  
Absolutely. And there was one thing when you were talking about unexpected death and how not death is unexpected in such a way, you're not you're reminded me what they used to say in ancient Greece and also think in ancient Rome, that we human beings are leet and extinguished like candles. So it is not up to us how long, we're going to burn at some point. And no, no one knows that. I mean, no matter I think your what your beliefs are on these matters, it is, I think, fair to assume that no one knows exactly when and how they, they're going to die. But so it shouldn't be unexpected. And even more I think it the more you

Agi Keramidas  26:04  
ponder on it, and contemplate on it, the more it makes you appreciate the life that you have before that inevitable. You know, I won't call it ending I will call that change because it is a change to some transition. Transition. Yes. And you haven't I would like to also to discuss with this, there is something practical we can do you have that exercise in the book, where it is about the end of life, regrets. And I think if you could just offer a short, a short description, for you know, the listener that now has been increased, intrigued, but still, you know, talking about this, or contemplating on death might be something that they still might not want to do or know how to do. But through that practice, I think it really gives an extra light of clarity in that.

Martin O'Toole  27:10  
Yeah, that's it. That's a great point. So early in the book, I suggest that if you told me I had five minutes left to live now, I would smile, give you a hug. And I would wander off to the nearest tree, sit under that tree. And I would gladly feel the sun on my face, the sitter ism of the wind through the leaves. And I would just breathe in gratitude for what could only be described as an incredible life. That would be me, that would be me gone. Now, I'm very fortunate to be in that position. But as we've already alluded in, certainly the book goes into significantly more detail that was not without many experiences to get me to that and learning to get me to that stage. So I also invite the readers to do the same thing. If you had five minutes left to live right now, what would be on your list of regrets? Now that's not what would you do what you're going to do in the last five minutes of your life. That's not the point. The point is you've just found out you've only got five minutes left. So if you were to take a snapshot photograph of your life now, your relationship with your parents, your wife, your husband, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, siblings, whoever it is, regrets, worries, emotional outbursts, you know, inaction, action, all of the things that you did say and didn't say, did do and didn't do. Can you write that list down? Obviously, you can have more than five minutes. That's not the point. The point is to take a cold hard look at where you are right now. And don't judge yourself. That's a fundamental point. But also don't lie to yourself. This is just you writing a list for you. You don't have to share it with Aggie ri. Obviously, you can share it with me if you like because people do that all the time since I wrote this book, but the point is to have a really, really authentic conversation with yourself about where you're at right now. Now, you know, an example I use in the book, my mum died, my mum that she she was an alcoholic for my whole life. She survived a double mastectomy. And actually she died of COPD pulmonary disease and she died in asleep in her arm chair. She has a heart attack that killed her. So she died overnight. Now I had actually seen her she died in the sixth of January. I saw her on Christmas Day. And actually it was it was quite nice. We weren't close, really, by the end. And actually, and I hadn't really spent a lot of time in her life because she constantly let me down, you know, I would always try and try and try, but then she was drunk, and it just got to the stage somewhere in my 30s. Were I just decided I can't do this anymore, you know, this is killing me. So, and then she was dead. Now, I didn't regret not seeing her because that, as I explained that seen her cup a week, two weeks prior. But what I began to regret through the grieving process was the other 30 odd years of absolute misery, and tension, and dissonance. I regretted that I couldn't do anything to stop her alcoholism. I also regretted a lot of the things that we'd said to one another, I regretted the fact that I had not even been around for the mastectomy. That wasn't even in her life, for any of that. So, you know, the question to the audience is a really simple one. Do you want that? And I'm not just talking about your mum, obviously, I'm talking about everybody, everybody in your life? Because if the answer is, well, no, obviously, I don't want that mountain, then there's only you that can do something about that. And it's got to start by with a list. And then and then it has to lead to action. And if you want my advice, you know, as soon as this podcast finishes, I would get busy doing it, because Newsflash, you or they may well die in the next five minutes. And that's a sobering reality, isn't it? So, you know, get busy living or get busy dying, as Morgan Freeman's character said in The Shawshank Redemption.

Agi Keramidas  32:01  
That's a wonderful movie, by the way, and, you know, with doing that exercise, it requires you to look inwards, and you said, you know, do it honestly, because it's only you. And it's no, no one else's least. I remember a few years ago, when I did an exercise like that myself, it was like, it was not five minutes. For me, it was one day that you have, you know, 24 hours to live seem very similar effect. And it was the first time that I actually contemplated I was I went somewhere

Agi Keramidas  32:41  
on a bit, actually, and I was sitting down because I wanted to really get into that feeling. Because it's, it's one thing you know, to say, Okay, well, what regrets would I have refined at the end of my life, when you have a very big part of you noticed that you are not, and that is just a mental exercise. But so I had gone into, I went on my own and just go deep into that mode to really feel the situation that that is the fact that I have 24 hours to live and I really spent probably an hour at that time, Martin and I was crying. Because you know, when you really feel regret, it's not something you just casually, it is one of the most debilitating feelings and you were saying earlier, you know about leaving the rat race and being in the matrix and all these things and met for many people. They think this is alright, or this. It's not for them to change. And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, you know it deep inside yourself. If if you are living this kind of life, and you feel unfulfilled, and you feel empty and you feel, then that is a clear sign, as far as I'm concerned again, that there is something not right there. You need to seek something else. If you are living the rat race and you're on top of the world with your life, by all means carry Kurita but I don't think there are that's the minority of the people. The majority are this, you know, the quiet desperation as sorrow used to say. This was the first part of my intriguing conversation with Martin O'Toole. The conversation went for over an hour and so I decided to split it in two parts. Join me in the next episode for the captivating conclusion to the conversation where we discuss happiness presents. It's really powerful. So join me in the next episode for part two. Thank you for listening and I hope you got valuable insights from today's episode. Follow personal development mastery in Apple podcasts or Spotify so that you'll get notified each time a new episode is available. If you already follow the show, then share it with a friend who you think will benefit from listening. Until next time, stand out don't fit in.