#172 Creativity, entrepreneurship, and the 'adjacent possible', with Larry Robertson (part 1).

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Episode Transcript

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Agi Keramidas  0:02  
Welcome to the personal development mastery Podcast. I am Agi Keramidas and my mission is to inspire you to grow, stand out and take action towards the next level of your life. I interview leaders, authors, successful entrepreneurs, spiritual teachers, exceptional people who will inspire you to improve your life. Tune in for two episodes each week and make sure you subscribe to get them as soon as they are released.

Agi Keramidas  0:45  
In today's show, I am delighted to speak with Laurie Robertson. Larry, you are an award winning author, strategist and innovation advisor who works at the nexus of creativity, leadership and entrepreneurship. As the founder of lighthouse consulting, you have for over 25 years guided entrepreneurial ventures and the leaders through uncertainty and change to less than success. You are the author of three books, including the recently released rebel leadership, how to thrive in uncertain times. You are a popular columnist and speaker and you have been named a Fulbright Scholar, which is a rare achievement for non academic professionals. Now it is an absolute pleasure to speak with you today. Oh

Larry Robertson  1:37  
my gosh, the privilege is all mine Agi, Thank you very much for having me.

Agi Keramidas  1:41  
Very excited about this. And, Larry, we were talking earlier before we started recording that you can listen to some of my episodes. So in this case, you bet you you know the first question I always ask about some kind of background, some kind of story from your journey. Usually I look for that milestone moment that makes relevance to this conversation that we had when things changed for you. So I would I would love it if you share this with with me today.

Larry Robertson  2:18  
Yeah, it's it's interesting. I, as I thought about this question, or that some form of it might come. I initially thought in terms of career, you know, what, what did I what experience did I have along the way that I might remember is as that moment, I think what's really interesting to Archie is that a lot of times when people encounter those moments, it's something they realise looking backwards. When you're actually in that moment, I don't know that you're always aware that this is going to change your trajectory. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought about and I do have those moments in my career where certain things happened, and it really changed my trajectory. But as I dug deeper in my head to thinking about it, I thought about my grandfather. And this was my mother's father. And what was so interesting about him, his name was Howard Williams was, he was an insatiably curious man. And he was also in many ways, a very private man. And I think the two are important because it was observing him and seeing his curiosity that even resonated for me as a little kid that I think influenced me more across the span of my life than anything else. He was the first in his family to finish high school, which was a tremendous achievement in and he grew up very, very poor in the state of Iowa. Here in the United States, he had to go to work at the age of eight when his father died, to help support the family. And then when he graduated from high school, he was so smart as a student so curious, as a student, that one of his there was no way his family could afford college. But one of his teachers in high school offered to pay for him to go to college. And he turned it down so that one, he could continue to help his family by working, but too, he could pursue curiosity that wasn't guided by someone else. So he started his own business way, way back in the 1930s. And he was a printer and it's it's funny to think of that as a profession these days with everything being so digital, but he created his own printing business. He was very dedicated to it. But here's the interesting thing he would come home after long days of of work in being a printer, and you would think that the first thing he would want to do is just sit down and he used to smoke a pipe, I can still in my head, bring back the smell and the feeling of that pipe, you would think that he would just want to rest from his day. Nothing could have been further from the truth. He was curious about what was going on in the yard that he hadn't seen before. What could he create in his basement in his workshop that might help some problem around the house or just entertain his grandson? I mean, he was just insatiably curious. And the more I look back on that, over the years, the things I've chosen to do professionally, the topics that I've invested myself in, I can't think of anybody who influenced me more than my grandfather through his example. He didn't say, Larry, you need to be curious, Larry, you need to do this. He just did it. And so observationally watching my grandfather, as I grew up, was probably the biggest influence maybe not a turning point. But a series of points that gave me a path in in life and the path was not do x the path was be curious.

Agi Keramidas  6:10  
That's, that's wonderful. And there was something when you were saying about your grandfather, not deciding not to go to follow the traditional education steps that he did his business and you think you should pursue his curiosity on his own or something like, it kind of gave me like what we say nowadays, the traditional education of the self education, so he chose his self education in in in a broader sense. Exactly. So can you define this curiosity that you got from your grandfather Arsenal? More than than Laurie curiosity? In what way? Exactly?

Larry Robertson  6:58  
That's a really good question. I'm not I'm not sure I've ever thought about it. Specifically, the very first thing that comes into my head was that my grandfather was a lifelong learner. And I know that's a term that is thrown around as a goal for most people, gee, I really should be a lifelong learner. But he, he was he, he didn't want to just do things to occupy his time, there was something to learn in everything he did. So I, that was one form of his curiosity. But the second thing was I, I was always impressed. By the way, he was curious about things outside of his world. So when I was a child, and he would come to visit, or we would visit him, he was curious about my world, he was curious about what I saw, or how I saw how I might react and not just as the loving grandfather. But I mean, he really, he would catch on to something that my brother and I were interested in, and see how far we could take it together. And to me, that's a different kind of curiosity. And I watched him do that, you know, my parents would have gatherings at our house. Sometimes when my grandparents were in town, other other adults would come and to watch him in conversations. He was much more of a listener than he was a talker. And again, to me, that was a sign that he truly wanted to learn. He wasn't shy in any way. It wasn't that he didn't have anything to share. I mean, he could have been all about him. But he was much more interested in learning about other people. One of these really interesting things that that happens in life we were talking earlier about, you know, how do you know whether or not your work resonates with with others, your work, my work and so on. And, you know, I people often talk about what they've achieved it, hoping to hear that it has resonated, I don't remember my grandfather ever talking about the things he did voluntarily mean if he was asked, he would certainly share. But I sometimes wonder what he would have made of social media. And, you know, people really wanting to be out there, projecting what they are and who they are and what they've achieved. He was very quiet about that. But one of those wonderful moments in life was occurred after a very sad moment, when he passed away. We discovered that for a period of time, he'd kept a journal. And part of that journal was also looking back at what had happened in his life before. And what was very interesting was to see that as he narrated his own life and his own thoughts, again, it wasn't about highlighting what he had achieved. But what he had seen while he was doing whatever it was while he was being the first to graduate from high school in his family while he was starting his business while he was being cheated by a customer was a whole range of things, where he thought about what that experience meant to him and what it said about others. And so that, to me is his kind of curiosity, that exploration that is ultimately aimed at learning, and mostly aimed at learning about things that are beyond the borders of his immediate life. That's, that's really what Curiosity has been to me. And I find myself constantly moving in that direction beyond the borders of what I know right now.

Agi Keramidas  10:27  
Sounds like an amazing role model and us as a person and this kind of interest in others to, to learn and understand their point of view, it's, I only wish more people had that rather than trying to, you know, push their opinion down your throat, to be friends and getting to know you. And so with that, I would like to talk about your work. And as broad as they say, is Laurie, there is this three vital knowledge points that you work with, and you describe the creativity, entrepreneurship, and leadership? And of course, these are elements that are very important for everyone, I believe. So I wanted to, to ask you, you enter know that you have written one, a one book for each of those three. So I wanted I will leave leadership for last because I want to talk a little bit more extensively about instances your your topic of the of your last book, but I wanted to discuss a bit first about creativity and, and entrepreneurship. And again, my question will be very general, but in terms of creativity, and maybe it might make more sense in the conversation if we combine it or if we merits creativity with the other two, the essence the present recipient leadership show. How do you see it? What is it there about creativity that you consider it to be one of those three most important pillars?

Larry Robertson  12:14  
Yeah, that's it's a one a great question and to a great observation that the observation that these things combined, absolutely combined. The the thing that just if I was to take a step back, that the first book was about entrepreneurship, and what launched me, one of the things that launched me down that path to writing that book was how often I heard that term, or derivations of the term entrepreneurship or entrepreneur, in the work world in which I lived in where people who labelled themselves as entrepreneurs, or were in the business of supporting entrepreneurs, being part of what I think of as the entrepreneurial universe never stopped to say, what does that term mean? It was always assumed that it meant something that was based on the context in which it was being used. So I'll start with entrepreneurship and say, it is most often associated with business and profit and making money, okay. But if you look at the roots of that word, that's not what it means what entrepreneurship means to be an entrepreneur, is to undertake and to undertake something at such a level of importance to you, that you, you lay yourself down as a shorty a guarantee, that you're going to pursue it until it's realised, that means something quite different than just turning a profit. It can result in that. But it's something deeper. And so this, this gets to your larger point, I look at thinking about things in an entrepreneurial way. And really my second book, which was focused on creativity was appealing back even further below, create our entrepreneurship, before entrepreneurship, creativity and thinking in an entrepreneurial way, are capacities that every human being haves. And yet, and this is something I described in my book on creativity, if you if you if you picture in your head, a circle I'm in I'm going to draw a pie chart for you. And you have this big circle with a tiny little sliver slice out of it. And then if I was to label that slice, people who know their creative, this is how we experience creativity, we think of this tiny few that are capable of it that achieve in a creative way, whether we're talking the arts, or we're talking in business or just thought leadership, social movements, whatever it might be. And then you have this massive rest of the pie and here's how I see that rest of the pie. All the other people who are wrongly told they're not creative. So if you if you think about young children, you know up to the age that they start school, most of the research backs this up that that's kind of a turning point for them. They're insatiably curious now, each in their own way, some are more outgoing and gregarious than others, but they explore their world, and they explore their world, even when there's a penalty, even when you know, they do something wrong, they, they reach out to the cat and pet it in a way the cat doesn't like, and so the cat, you know, scratches them, or whatever they keep going. And that's really who we are at our core that there's an author, his name is Daniel Gilbert. He's a psychologist at Harvard. And he says that, that the thing that makes human beings is that we're the only species that we're aware of, that can think about the future, not just I've experienced this before, I'll probably experienced it again, but really project a future that doesn't even exist yet a future that might be made out of pieces that don't exist yet, that innate curiosity as a species is what has allowed us to move forward. So if you if you take all that, you know, stuff that I just said, What it says is we have these underlying capabilities that as human beings that we often don't recognise and don't practice. And so whether we're talking about creativity, or entrepreneurship or leadership, a big driver for me, ology is helping people to recognise that, that these are things that we're all capable of that these are almost like our superpowers, but one, you have to practice using them. And two, you have to make them very personal to who you are, there is no one version of leadership, there is no one version of creativity, there's no one version of entrepreneurial thinking. The problem is, is that we're given images of each of those, right? So lets you know that the iPhone has had such a huge impact on the world. It's only a teenager it was it was created 13 years ago, right. And we think of the iPhone, often as the creation of Steve Jobs. First of all, Steve Jobs rejected the idea when his engineers came to him, they had to come repeatedly for months to convince him that they should go this way in terms of a smart device, not even just a front, the phone is an app on the iPhone. It was his team that helped create that it was his team that played with these ideas. It was this community, eventually backed by Steve Jobs that created this output. However, we tend to look at an output and say, Oh, my gosh, the iPhone, oh my gosh, only a Steve Jobs could create that. So if if instead we go back to the beginning, instead of the outputs, we go to the beginning and we say, Hmm, there are these factory issued standard abilities that every human being has, every human being has the capacity to think creatively. Every person has the capacity to lead in their own way, if we can recognise that, and then we're willing to embrace that and play with it on our own, we actually tap a greater human potential and so all the way back to your initial question, I think of my three books as really revolving around the same thing. And that is, how Who are we as human beings? And how do we raise our potential no matter what it is we're trying to accomplish?

Agi Keramidas  18:25  
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Agi Keramidas  20:02  
There are many things now that came to mind with what you said. And I will start with what you said about entrepreneurship and the meaning of the word. And I think really we many people, it is synonymous with business if this think intrapreneurship as you said, it's about the money, profits, business, etc. But it's, I really liked what you said about the to undertake and the the Greek word for entrepreneurship, or entrepreneurship means exactly that to, to to undertake it's it's a very accurate translation of show it is. It's just something that went through my mind because of personal experience and having also myself having to grow out of this mentality that entrepreneurship is a businessman. Yeah, it's I had since I grew up, and I suppose many people still see it like that. Whereas, as you very, very clearly said that this is it is not just about doing something and

Larry Robertson  21:18  
and related to that, it I think it's really important. It's a it's, it's about doing something that you're vested in in a larger way i. So, for my first book on entrepreneurship, I interviewed more than 220 people who played roles in the entrepreneurial universe, the majority of them were entrepreneurs, some of them have smaller organisations, some of very large ones, some that had been enormously successful, many that had not, or had gone through a series of ups and downs, things like that. And what was most fascinating to me, and getting to this idea of undertaking was that each of these individuals didn't just come up with an idea. They looked out at the world and asked in one way or another, why are things the way they are? And how might they be better. So think about that those, those are very large sounding words, meaning that the realm of possibility within those words is endless, which is really the point. And the point is it isn't just to start an operation where you're going to sell a product or a service. And you're going to you're going to have this positive bottom line entrepreneurship. And one of the things I was most fascinated about was the lack of recognition among many who called themselves experts in entrepreneurship, that entrepreneurship occurs in nonprofit organisations, it's part of social movements, it, it occurs within the arts and other areas. And yet, the examples that are advertised are mainly around business. But really what's happening is individuals asking those questions, looking out the world saying, Why are things the way they are? And how might they be better? And when they see a way, or a path that they could follow where things might be better? Actually, many of them look around them and say, Well, why doesn't somebody else do that? Right? There, their first inclination is, they must exist out there, somebody else must see this, somebody else must understand, okay, nobody else sees it, well, somebody can clearly do it better than I can, you know, they, they, they have the resources or the experience of starting something like this, let them do it. But ultimately, they reach what I call the no choice point where they know that this what they see not only would benefit the world, it has to be pursued, they absolutely believe humanity would be better, even if they're only going to influence a tiny little slice of humanity. They believe they have no choice but to pursue that. And it leads to this really interesting dynamic entrepreneurs are not risk takers, which is a fascinating comment and one that frustrated many people who who read my my book on entrepreneurship. We think externally looking in at an entrepreneur, we think of them as risk takers, because we often look at what they do and say, Oh, my gosh, I would never do that. I would never put that on the line. I would never put that much effort into it. But from their perspective, they've they've reached this no choice point. And they believe that the world needs this. So the greater risk to them is to not do what they're doing. And in fact, as they pursue what they're doing, they're very calculated risk takers. They're really thoughtful about what they're going to engage in. They do what is often called fast failing when something doesn't go the way that they thought it would. They learn from it very quickly. They don't look at it. As an endpoint, they look at it as part of the progression and part of the adaptation. So it's a really interesting and deep well, when you start to think about undertaking because what you suddenly realise is that anybody can be an entrepreneurial thinker. Anybody can pursue that path. One of the things I've enjoyed so much about your podcast, and the and the many episodes I've listened to, is that ultimately you're talking about personal development. So aren't we really talking about the same thing, when you reach that point that you see a way in which through you, the world can be better? When you reach a point where you believe in that so much that you feel you have no choice, but to explore that path? Even if you're not sure exactly how even if you know, it'll be a constant learning process. And when you pursue that path, because you think, not only might I master my own personal development, and I might be better, but inevitably, you're doing it because somehow you believe others will be made better by it, even if it's one other person, the world will be made better, but I think we're talking about the same thing.

Agi Keramidas  26:13  
Yes, we are. And can I? Oh, you said about even if it's one person earlier, you said different if it's a small slice of people that you impact. And I will argue with that, that the ripple effect of that small slice, or even that one person you can't really know. So you might influence only one or 10 people with your venture with your undertaking. But those 10 people might influence 10 million people, and there's probably no way of you knowing that. So I also by what you were saying so far with entrepreneurship, and starting and doing something to improve, to improve whatever it is that you feel call to improve, also merges entirely in my mind anyway, with creativity, because you are really innovating, you're making something new, or you're improving something show, that is creativity. And I think we have been in some ways, misled, or there is a misconception about what creativity, as you mentioned, the artists and show it's not just being a great painter, or being a composer of music, to be creative, it can be much, much smaller things which tell me a bit more about creativity. Then Laurie asked this, I like very much this point, or this part of the two circles meeting between creativity and entrepreneurship, especially in this San Jose early stages of the venture. So I would like a bit more about to hear a bit more about the creative. Sure. And especially how people who think they are not creative, how can they flick something in their head and realise that yes, they are it is their innate human ability, they just need to tap into it.

Larry Robertson  28:21  
And I think you're absolutely on the right track in how you're not only connecting the two, but how each one extends the other. Creativity extends entrepreneurial thinking entrepreneurial thinking requires ongoing creativity, as I'm about to both define it for you and point people towards which is really what you asked. So one of the biggest, one of the most important I'll read describe that one of the most important things we can realise about creativity is what it's not. Creativity is not its outputs. So this is what I think most throws people off the scent of figuring out what creativity is or how to be creative. We, we think of creativity as the creation of a beautiful Symphony. We think of it as a successful entrepreneurial venture. We think of it as a social movement that actually had a significant impact on others enough that it not only drew people to it, but it changed laws things so that we look at the outputs. And then we tend to do the second thing, which I think is one of our faults and thinking about creativity. We want to look for the creator singular. We want to look for the hero who created that Symphony who led that movement who said that the in the top corner office of that organisation that's so successful. So the reality is, is that creativity is simply this capacity. To in this kind of goes back to the entrepreneurship thing to think about what's not there to think about the future to think about what could be better some combination of those things. Oftentimes, and this is something we all experience, we have this sense of fit or not fit, right? We encounter something in our world, and we say, gosh, you know, I'm seeing that, but that doesn't really seem to fit with the picture that I have before me, or the picture I have in my head. The one thing most of us don't do is to follow that thought, Why? Why doesn't it fit? What might fit better? And so, so creativity, really, tapping your creative ability? Pardon me, is a practice. It's, it's following those thoughts of fit or not fit? It's very much about inquiry, and constantly thinking in terms of questions, not to get to the answer, I mean, answers are important. But to keep that inquisitive mindset going all the time. And the other thing we recognise about creativity, when we really look at it is it's it's not just its outputs. It's not just about a single creator, it's always in every single case, I will, I will argue this for weeks on end with you. It is about co creation, we're either standing on the shoulders of somebody who came before us, who caused us to say, Well, that was a great idea. But something about it doesn't fit, I've got another idea. Or we are working with people around us who in many cases contribute to our idea, right? They help to shape it, they build on it, in some cases, they come up with better ideas that replace our original idea. Or they're simply they're giving us balance, so that we can pursue our creativity, important people in our life could be a spouse, it could be a friend, it could be a child, a teacher, whatever it might be, they are co creators, so we'd never do this alone. So if we were to back up from creativity, and say, a summary of those things, creativity is not its outputs. Creativity is not about looking for this heroic genius, individual creator, even if somebody took the lead on it. And it very much is about inquiry ongoing, and about co creation. All of a sudden, we have a very, very different perspective on what creativity is. So the last part of your question is, well, I'm going to rephrase it a little bit, how do you start moving in that direction. It's a simple matter of practice. And I'll give you a really interesting story. When when I wrote the book on creativity, one of the elements of my research that I so enjoyed was, I had the opportunity to interview nearly 70 MacArthur fellows. So that's this award given out by the MacArthur Foundation that is developed this popular moniker of the Genius Award. It's not something you can apply for it's it's bestowed upon you. And it's the only award given for creativity undefined, it's given to people in every single sector.

Larry Robertson  33:11  
One of the people I talked to among those MacArthur fellows was a guy by the name of Steve Kaufman. And he talks about this concept that that he came up with called the adjacent possible. And I think the adjacent possible is really the best way to tell people, how do you get going, and here's what he says about the adjacent possible. This is that any one of us, if we think about our lives, we really have this border, around what we know and what we do in any particular moment. We don't always think of it in those terms. But we're limited by what we know what we do, and where we are, and so forth. possibility is not something that exists a moon leap away from the world we live in, and from our borders, it's actually just over the edge of that. So every time we put our toe or our mind, outside of what we know, even in the smallest ways, every time we step out of our borders, we step into what's adjacent and therefore what is possible. And what Stu says is so powerful about this is that even when you do that in small ways, once you step beyond just put your toe beyond the borders of what you know, you can't help but see things differently, see things that are different, are they always going to be huge and breakthrough. Of course not. But there's something beyond your border that's new and fresh, and every single day this is kind of like my grandfather, he would see what his grandsons did and pursue that to say, Ah, I never thought to be interested in that. I never thought what that could be. I'm just playing with my grandkids that is stepping into the adjacent possible. The other thing Stu said is when you step back inside your borders after having put your toe outside of it, you can't help but see Your world in a different way. So if we're going back to the story of my grandfather, I'm sure that what my brothers saw through his very unique way of looking at the world, what I saw, which was a very different way of looking at the world, somehow influenced how my grandfather looked at his world, inside the borders, he knew after he played with us, or did some kind of project with us. The most powerful thing about the adjacent possible is that when you make this a habit of putting your toe across the border of what you know, coming back in and seeing differently, you actually expand the possible in your world. So think about that, the tiniest little act in your life, but making it a habit of being willing and aware that you're willing to go beyond your borders, and being aware that you have them whether you believe you're the most open person in the world or not. You have borders, at least based on your knowledge, just being willing to do that pushes you in the direction of tapping your creative capacity. And as long as you do that, and don't constrain yourself to say, Oh my gosh, you know, I love music. And I really want to create a piece of music. But you say to yourself that in only if you create a Mozart, like Symphony, is your music worthy, if you you're looking at the output to define creativity, if you don't do that, and you practice putting your toe across the border into the adjacent possible, you will automatically become more creative just out of practice.

Agi Keramidas  36:30  
The sets an amazing answer, loudly, thank you very much, you You gave so many elements there. And that couldn't help by but in a way correlate what you were saying about dipping your toe outside of your body or with that concept of our comfort zone, which is what we're familiar with and comfortable. And getting out of it in small doses that you said about God getting your thoughts there, which I think for most people, no matter how risk averse role they want to be, they can certainly put their toe out there if they are in that maybe requires that curiosity that you were talking about in the beginning, just to see what happens. And very much. If I can speak personally, every time I put my dog or my foot out there and tried something that was new or different or uncomfortable. I never regretted it, it was the feeling it It could have been uncomfortable at that time. But I never regretted it. And as you said, when you go back into your own border, or it expands and you say different than you really want or I can only speak about myself, but I can assume there are other people like that, that want to experience that more and more and because that gives you growth gives you progress. And actually it gives you a more meaningful life as far as I can see, it's growing and progressing and doing new things. And and I've taken it away from creativity now and I have taken it on maybe a different topic, but I couldn't help but think the the correlation when you were describing that, the the adjacent pose,

Larry Robertson  38:34  
I think you're absolutely right. And so this is the interesting thing that I think in hibbott cess when it comes to things like creativity, but not just creativity, I mean it when we think about personal development, we have sometimes this grand vision of a place we want to end up and we discount that there are so many steps in between here and there. And really, the most important step is is taking a step, the most important step is is acting because as you know, as as I know, as I'm sure your listeners know, the path is never as you anticipated, sometimes that's really to your advantage. It's it's better or it's better, even though it's something you didn't think was going to be better. So it's really the practice of thinking creatively that matters most we, we tend also not only do we think of creativity in terms of its outputs, we tend to think of creativity is something we call on in crisis, when we need to solve a problem when we just really want to innovate our way in in a new direction. And, and we think of it as though even though and I've, I've said this just to you in the last, you know, 20 minutes or so, this is an innate human capacity for creativity. However, if you don't practice it, it is not something you can call on. In an emergency situation, and expect to be good at it, it is something that, and I'm just repeating the word because I think it's important, you have to practice that. You also, you benefit from small practices as much as you benefit from large practices. So this, you know, just stepping into a new experience in the smallest, even, you know, most comfortable of ways, is practice for that larger creative thinking that larger problem solving when there really is a problem. It's hard to see that in the moment. But the more you do it, the more agile your mind becomes, the more comfortable you become in going in that direction I, in my so my second book on creativity is called the language of man learning to speak creativity. And one of the concepts I talked about in the book are the three acts of creation. And this is another simple tool that I think your listeners can think about an employee in their own way, not the way Larry's talking about it. Not the way he might but but in their own way. Here are the three acts of creation, choice, reaction, and improvisation. Choices just Are you going to put your toe across the border choice doesn't have a scope to it. Choice is simply Are you going to choose to embrace Are you going to choose to practice Are you going to choose to whatever your version of it is put that toe across the line? Whenever we do that, we don't think about this much. But whenever we make a choice, in our heads, we're leaning towards the assumption that that choice will end up with a good outcome. I mean, that's what attracts you right? That you want to make that choice, because there's the potential for a good outcome. The problem with that is that even if the outcome is good, sometimes we get lazy about it, right? We expected the good, we got the good. So we think our job is done, rather than we have to go. The other side is sometimes things turn out badly. So that's the reason why the second act of creation is reaction. How will we react to whatever follows our choice? If if it turns out to be a not so good decision? Will we stop? Or will we keep going? If it turns out to be a good decision? Will we get lazy? Or will be will we become more engaged? Will we learn something from it. And the last act of creation is improvisation. Because no matter what path you're on, no matter how many times others have walked it, whatever you encounter yourself, is going to be different, distinct enough that you'll have to improvise in some way. There's no formula to life in general. And in an uncertain world, like we have now and have had for the last 20 years. And at least as far forward as we can see, we will have there is definitely no map and there is definitely no formula. So to be willing to make those choices, to be conscious of our reactions in those and to be willing to improvise. That's really at the core of creativity in any form.

Agi Keramidas  43:04  
Thank you. That's a great way of describing it and I can I offer I will offer my version of a synonym for for improvisation as you did. I would say resourcefulness, because it's you're going to find you have to improvise and find, be resourceful in whatever it is that that happens. And this was the first half of the conversation with Laurie robotron. Listen to the second part on in the next episode 173 where Larry talks about leadership, Rebel leadership and why soul is the key to entrepreneurial success.

Agi Keramidas  43:55  
I hope you enjoyed listening. If you have, please share this episode with someone who you think will benefit from it. If you want to know more about what I do, visit my website agikeramidas.com. And until next time, stand out don't fit in!

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