The Communication Mistake Most People Don’t Realise They’re Making and What to Do Instead, with Aurora Winter | #594

Agi Keramidas (0:03)
Today, my guest is Aurora Winter. Aurora, you are a successful entrepreneur, bestselling author and business builder, and you are passionate about helping people use their words more powerfully so they can create impact, income, and legacy. Aurora, welcome to the show.
It's such a real pleasure to speak with you today.

Aurora Winter (0:26)
Oh, it's great to be on the show with you, Aggie, and I look forward to helping our listeners turn their words into wealth.

Agi Keramidas (0:33)
Sounds good to me, and that's exactly the main theme, shall we say, that I wanted to discuss with you about. Communication, if I can put it a little bit more broadly, but perhaps more particularly, how we can communicate our value more clear, in a more clear way, and use our words to create opportunities, to create something different or different outcomes. What I'd like to ask or to begin with is, what made you realize that importance of communication and that it is more a driver of success, much more important than other things?

Aurora Winter (1:19)
Oh, well, I have a story for you. Right at the very beginning of my entrepreneurial mission in life, which was years ago, I thought I had an absolutely genius idea. Actually, I knew I had a genius idea.
My husband and I were two kids who fell in love in university. We decided to launch a business for the very practical reason that we were madly in love, but we had no money. We needed to launch a business that didn't take any money whatsoever.
We ended up chartering other people's boats, renting people's boats, and taking a management fee. That was a survival business. Then we had the genius idea, hey, why don't we sell new boats into our charter fleet?
This was a very good idea, because then we would make a commission on the boat sales, and the boats were like $100,000. That would add up. Then I had an even better idea, which is, hey, why don't we offer tax shelter benefits?
We invested all the money we had, $20,000, to figure out if we could offer tax benefits. We could, because we took something that was working in real estate and moved it over to yacht sales, which meant huge benefits for the buyer. It meant they could write off the boat at 33 and a third percent per year.
If you had a $100,000 boat, you'd get 33% tax savings. You get a 7% investment tax credit, so you get $7,000 off the top. I knew this was a brilliant idea, but did I have the right message?
No. People were lazing over like you are right now. Why? Too much information about taxes.
Who cares about taxes? What's in it for me? My husband and I, we had this little 400 square foot office.
We looked at each other. We're like, you thought this was a good idea. No, you thought this was a good idea.
I'm like, I know this is a good idea, but why are prospects glazing over like you just did as I'm talking about tax benefits? My husband said something offhand. He's like, well, people only use their boat for five weeks a year anyway.
I'm like, that's it. He's like, what? That's it.
So I came up with seven words, which was five weeks of sun, fun, and tax shelter. And that's like standup comedy, right? After seeing a picture of a boat and hearing sun, fun, you don't expect the next word to be tax shelter, right?
So it grabs attention. It's a pattern interrupt like standup comics do. Those seven words changed us from on the verge of bankruptcy because we'd invested all of our money in this little startup business and we just two kids in our twenties to making $3 million in one week.
The phone wouldn't stop ringing. We got a profile on the front cover of magazine, radio channels wanted to interview us. And we had people lined up to buy boats from us and not from our competitors.
So we went from discounting to sell boats, like basically, yeah, take the boat for free. As long as we make $500 to having no need to discount and becoming the largest yacht dealer in Western Canada with a multimillion dollar business, which was a big deal for two kids in their twenties.
So that is the moment when I realized it's not about having a great idea. It's not about being more clever. It's not even about having something to offer that nobody else offered because none of the other yacht dealers ever did it.
It was too complicated for them. It's about what is your message? So the right message, just seven words made the difference between struggle and well thriving.
So that was the moment when I'm like, Oh, this message thing. This is not icing on top of the cake. This is the cake.
And most business people, most people, they spend all of their time working on their product or their service or their efficiency or their to-do list, but they don't spend very much time thinking about or practicing their message. And that's what I would love to invite and encourage people to do.

Agi Keramidas (5:32)
And let's talk about this, particularly the mindset shift that is required because I think for many, the default mode is to give information and share how brilliant our product or service is. So it does require a change in thinking in order to present the message in the way that you explained just now. So tell us a bit more about this.
How can one start perceiving or changing the way that they communicate their value or their service or product in such a way that the phone won't stop ringing?

Aurora Winter (6:18)
Well, there are three steps to the neuroscience of communication, which I can share very quickly. But before I do that, I just want to say that the key mistake in communication is thinking that the message that you sent is the message that is received. And nothing could be further from the truth.
So that's the first thing that we need to interrupt and go, okay, I'm talking, but that doesn't mean that I'm communicating, right? You have to change the mindset to what is the other person hearing? What is the other person receiving?
What's in it for them? So shift the spotlight from you and how your product or service or whatever you're up to is so brilliant. And think about them.
What do they want? What do they need? Like in my example, you know, I studied economics.
My father's an economist. I guess I was proud that I had figured out this really clever thing. And so I was talking about me.
I was talking about, hey, isn't this clever? Tax shelter, benefits, spreadsheets. But what about them?
What do they want? What they wanted was sun, fun, and tax shelter, right? They wanted a boat. They wanted somebody else to pay for it.
So by changing the language and tightening it, the result was amazing. So there are three steps to neuroscience. The first step is illustrated by sun, fun, and tax shelter, or it's illustrated by the title of my book, which is Turn Words Into Wealth.
Or it's illustrated by anything that you're noticing right now that's ever caught your attention, like the four hour work week by Tim Ferriss. So the first step is to say something quick, short, and snappy, and see if the other person is even interested in that category.
So if people respond to five weeks of sun, fun, and tax shelter, or respond to Turn Words Into Wealth with a tell me more, well, great, then you have permission to tell them more. And that is addressing the croc brain. So the croc brain is the initial filter.
It's very expensive for human beings to pay attention. Gosh, even today you can, you can everything is clamoring for our attention. But even back in caveman days, it was very expensive to pay attention.
So there's a filter because we don't want to use our precious resources of calories and fat to process information that is not relevant to us. In fact, mostly our brain works as a filtering mechanism to filter out the 10,000 messages per second that don't relate to what we're up to and focus on the one that does.
So the first step takes longer to explain than to do, which is you need to grab attention. So that's appealing to the ancient croc brain or the reptilian brain, the first filter. So that's the, the title of your YouTube video, for example, it's the subject line on an email, or it's the title of a book like turn words into wealth or the four hour workweek.
So the second step is the social midbrain and the order does matter. So a lot of people skip that second step. So that second step just sounds like, well, for example, turn words into wealth 2026 was just voted the Reader's Choice Award, it got the Reader's Choice Award.
And it's got reviews from literary titan and book life, etc, etc. So you need just very quickly to mention how other people just like the person you're talking to think this is a cool idea.
So for example, with the tax shelter, example, five weeks of sun fun and tax shelter, I could say this has been approved by our accountants and give the name of a big firm, right? Or this other person who's just like you, this other pilot, this other business owner has just invested in this.
So just very quickly so that they nobody likes to be first, right? So appeal to the midbrain. And again, that is a filtering mechanism.
If you imagine that you had a great message for a king and queen, and you're charging up on your horse, and you arrive at the castle, the castle has a moat around it, the crocodile is in the moat, you've passed the moat with your croc message. And then the drawbridge comes down and you trot in with your horse to deliver this message of the king and queen.
Do you think the king and queen are standing by the drawbridge? Of course not. So there's another filter that the brain does.
And that is like the sniff test. Who is this person? Do they have high status?
This is one of the reasons that it's good to be an author because the root of the word author authority is author. So you have higher status, who sent this messenger? Do they look like they haven't washed for a week, you have to pass that social sniff test.
And if you do pass it, then the nobles will lead you to the throne room. And then you can then and only then can you talk to the king and queen or the cerebral cortex. And most people completely miss the first two steps.
And they think they're in the throne room talking to the king and queen who are the decision makers when actually they're still on their horse outside of the moat yelling and nobody's listening. Right? So yelling louder is not the solution.
The solution is do it in this order. So once you're escorted into the throne room, and you're talking to the king and queen, then you have an opportunity to give maybe five minutes of content. But what I would love to recommend, and yes, this is a oversimplification, but we all know that the brain has right and left hemispheres.
So imagine that one hemisphere loves stories and only hear stories and emotion, and the other hemisphere only hears logic and facts. So mix it up. Don't be all facts.
Have a couple of facts to sprinkle in with your stories. And so and then check in and let the other person say something which won't let you say something right now, Aggie. But what I want to say is if people communicate in that sequence, even a 90 minute keynote can be broken into, say, five or 10 minute segments that do this process again and again, croc brain, midbrain, cerebral cortex.

Agi Keramidas (12:32)
This is great and very useful. And the way you were saying it, I got like the grabber or the hook that we use to, you know, gain someone's attention, which is, I liked very much the analogy of, you know, the horse or having to give the message to the king and how you actually go there. I would like to hear a bit more, let's stay on this first filter, because the second and the third will not happen unless the first one is executed successfully.
And you said that it takes longer to explain that to do it, which I agree to some extent. However, it is not as simple as one might say, okay, we need to shift our attention from us to them. You said the spotlight to shift it to them.
It's not necessarily easy or it doesn't necessarily come naturally to many people. So I would like to hear your thoughts on how practically can one do that in such a way and shift the spotlight and focus it on the other person and what's in it for them rather than describing their own, you know, stuff?

Aurora Winter (13:48)
No, this is a brilliant question. And yes, when you have the million dollar message, which might be only seven words, it take you just a moment to say it. But the process of coming up with your million dollar message is a process.
And with my clients at Same Page Publishing, we usually devote a whole month to really nailing their brand. That's because it's not important that you get the right seven words in seven minutes. What's important is that you get the right seven words, not quickly, but the absolute key million dollar message for any business can open up millions of dollars of revenue, as I just shared in my own example.
So to answer your question, shifting the focus onto the other person, I lead people through some processes that will help give a download of words in which there probably is the right word somewhere, but they need to be mixed up and discovered. So one of the easy things that all the listeners can do is do a myth bust.
So myth busting is one of the easiest things to teach and the easiest and most fun things to do. It's part of my media training program at Same Page Publishing. But what you want to think about is make a list of all of the common things that everybody knows in your industry that are actually wrong.
Right? So everybody knows that you can't have the government pay for your boat. Right?
That was wrong. What is it that everybody knows in your industry that is actually wrong, that can be part of the filtering message, filtering to discover your million dollar message. So for example, I launched another business which I've now sold, but my beloved husband, the one I started the yacht sales company with actually died young.
So it's a good thing he had a very good beginning in his 20s, because he died at the age of 33. So I actually later started a company called the grief coach academy, which helped people recover from grief. And it also trained therapists and coaches and other ministers and those kinds of people how to help people specifically through grief.
When I started that company, I'm going to do a myth bust now. So when I started that company, everybody knew that somebody who was dealing with grief had to see a therapist, and that coaching did not work. Everybody knew that was so I knew they were wrong, because I had coached people through grief.
And I only started the grief coach academy because I helped two women through grief. And they both told me something almost the same in the same week, they said you helped me more in that one session, then my therapist has helped me in one case, six months in the other case, two years, can you teach me how to help people like you just helped me and I'm like, Okay, after I get the same messages a couple of times, I'm like, Okay, I guess I'm supposed to start the grief coach academy.
So when I started the grief coach academy, as I said, everybody knew that you couldn't coach people through grief. And I got a lot of pushback from the coaching industry, who and and others who wanted to make grief mental illness. And I'm really passionate about that.
If you are not grieving after the death of a loved one, then you might have mental illness. Grief is a normal and natural reaction to loss. So those those little things, those things that everybody knew, and my passion that I knew I had helped people through grief, I knew I had gone to a therapist and they hadn't been terribly helpful.
I knew I had actually gone to church grief support groups. And I had discovered that they actually did support grief, not grief recovery. So putting those things all together helped me discover the million dollar message for that company, and grew that company to eventually, you know, generate over seven figures.
And eventually I sold it because now I'm interested in helping people with their message. So the the and I got on a lot of TV and radio and profiled in, in Elle magazine and Success magazine and KTLA and ABC and Fox, etc, etc, with that message.
And the basic message was, grief is a normal and natural reaction to loss. It typically takes people five to eight years to recover from a devastating loss. And that is way too long.
And with the right coaching, people can recover in a fraction of that time, even as little as five to eight months, or even in some cases, five to eight weeks. So I knew that I had evidence of it, I had experience of it. And that was a very distinct and fresh message at that time.
Now other coach training companies offer grief coaching because I made it normal. So they copied me. But you can see like, there's a whole thought process that I wanted to share with you to really more deeply answer your question.
And myth busting started it, but then looking what everybody knows, and then also check in what do you know, in your heart or from the transformations that you have provided in your business? What do you know to be true? That is an outlier or that is fresh or that is unusual?
And how can you really shine a light on that in a very crisp, clear way. And that is part of the process we go through to help people discover their million dollar message.

Agi Keramidas (19:21)
Aurora, I like very much, you said earlier, you were explaining how to mix story with the facts so you can appeal to both the left and the right brain. And during your answer just now, you demonstrated that, of course, it was done in a subtle way. But because we were just talking about it, I noticed it.
So it was a very great practical application of what you just said. So that was also very useful.

Aurora Winter (19:56)
And just to interrupt, like for the listeners or the viewers, when you do that, it's far more likely that your message becomes viral. Because if you just give somebody the fact, it doesn't stick. But if you give them the facts and a story, it's repeatable.

Agi Keramidas (20:12)
Hmm. Let's talk a little bit more then about the story in particular. Is there a specific or some kind of story that is better to use in these situations than other?
And one thing that comes to my mind, does it have to be a personal story of some event that happened to us? Can it be a story in a more broad sense of the word? Does it matter?
So tell us a bit more about the story element.

Aurora Winter (20:45)
Yeah, well, these are really great questions. And in the book Turn Roads into Wealth, I break out different blueprints for different stories, because there's more than one way to tell a story. And I'd love for people to have all of these tools in their toolkit.
I'm going to explain two different ways to tell a story so that you have the template and the blueprint. And you can use it right away. But first to answer your question about does it need to be your story?
It's best if it's your story, or the story of the clients or patients whose lives you have transformed, especially today, in the age of AI, a generic story isn't it? So it's okay, if that's the best you have. Your most powerful asset, which is part of your brand is your story, your your mess, your breakthroughs.
The second most powerful are the stories of your clients, or patients, or people whose lives you or your company have transformed. The third best is stories of people that other people have heard of. Like in my book, Turn Roads into Wealth, I tell some stories about Jay Shetty, who wrote the book Think Like a Monk.
I tell a story about Stephen Bartlett, whose podcast, Diary of CEO became the number one podcast in the UK, rivaling Joe Rogan. All right, so those are the next best. And then after that, are any stories that that Chad Chibiti gives you that are not yours.
I'd love people to have, even if they're sharing other people's stories, have something about the story that has their flavor that only they can say. Right? So think about that.
Okay, so now I'm going to give you two blueprints that you can use right away. And if you want more details, check out the book, Turn Roads into Wealth. One is the what I call the hell to heaven transformation.
So this is the simplest format to wrap your mind around. So what is the hell that you were in before the transformation? And what was the heaven afterwards?
So just hell to heaven. So for example, I told it at the beginning, so it'll make sense succinctly. The hell that my husband and I were in before we got the message was we had invested all the money that we had in figuring out if this was possible.
We spent $20,000 with lawyers and accountants. We were basically giving boats away for free. We were eating rice and beans.
That was the hell. I knew it was a great idea, but nobody else did. That was the hell.
And then the heaven after we came up with those seven words, after we nailed the million dollar message after we had the five weeks of Sun Fun and tax shelter was $3 million in one week. It was people waiting to buy boats from us. It was the phone ringing and TV and radio hosts wanting to interview us.
It was being featured on the front cover of a magazine. Okay, so that is a hell to heaven transformation. So I invite I encourage everybody to make make a list of all of your own hell to heaven transformations, and the hell to heaven transformations of your clients.
To take that example and make it even juicier, even better. My background is in film and television. I actually launched a film and television production company with a partner in in England.
And we raised 5 million and it went on to make eight films. I actually oversaw 250 hours of TV and film production when I was a film and TV executive in Hollywood, where I live now. So Hollywood, the Hollywood formula should be familiar to anybody who's ever watched a blockbuster movie.
And it's and it's similar to the hell to heaven transformation, but it has a middle step. And the middle step is important, and you'll see how it makes the story even more interesting. The middle step is also something that people tend to want to skip over, because they want to be airbrushed, they want to look good.
But actually, if you really think about it, there's no hero without a dragon. If there's no problem, if there's no struggle, there's no story. So the, the movie way of doing the hell to heaven transformation emphasizes the struggle in the middle.
So taking the same story, my husband and I were eating rice and beans, things were not going well. I'm like, this has to stop. Okay, so then in the middle, I tried to solve the problem by saying, Hey, this idea could work.
Let's spend $20,000 on lawyers and accountants. And he said, Yes. And then our bank account drained.
And then I made a phone book of content to give people when they wanted to inquire about it. And that costs money too. And when I gave the phone book to people explaining the tax shelter, they glazed over and said, Yeah, I'll read this over the weekend and get back to you.
And nobody called. And then my husband and I are looking at each other and we're like, maybe we should get real jobs. Maybe we have to apply for unemployment insurance.
And the company that boats we were selling were like, you have to order another boat because we're going to take your boat dealership away from you if you don't start selling boats. And then we're like, okay, this really has to work. And then he said, people only use boats five weeks a year.
And then I said, Wow, that's it. What about five weeks of sun, fun and tax shelter? And that million dollar message, seven words, produce seven figures in seven days.
Boom. So it's a more expanded version with this struggle in the middle. And tell me which version is more memorable, Agi.

Agi Keramidas (26:43)
It's certainly more relatable, I think, when you discuss about the middle, the challenges, the struggle, as you said, in the middle. Because, and I'm not answering your question directly, but what comes up now when I hear, when I heard what you said, is that often, especially in the times that we live with social media and people presenting more often than not the end result or the heaven in this case, we often tend to forget how they got there. We, and when I say we, I mean, I believe the majority of people tend to only look at the end result because that end result is usually what is portrayed by the people who post or someone who has achieved a level of success.
And that's not the whole story. It is, it reminds me of the phrase, it takes years to become an overnight success. So, that struggle in the middle, it is very important, very relatable, because many are going through that part and, you know, when you are in the middle, you do not have the certainty that heaven will be there. I mean, you can hope for it, you can plan for it, you can visualize it, you can do all those things, but it's not certain, like when you look back at what has happened. So, that's my own reflection now on what you just said. I don't know if you want to add anything else to this.

Aurora Winter (28:27)
No, I think that is very valid and a good example of this that many people may know is Mel Robbins. So, Mel Robbins does a beautiful job. In most of her stories, she is the one who is making the mistake or she is the villain, so to speak.
She doesn't tend to paint herself as, you know, like the angel. No, no, she's the one who is making mistakes and it's very relatable. So, for example, you may recall her story about the five-second rule.
So, she and her husband were on the verge of bankruptcy, they had overextended because he'd opened another restaurant, she started drinking too much, she couldn't get up in the morning because things seemed hopeless, bill collectors were calling, and she happened to watch the NASA launch. She had had a habit of pressing snooze, pressing snooze, pressing snooze, and then the whole day was off to a bad start. After watching the NASA launch, for some reason the next morning, she did the NASA countdown, five, four, three, two, one, and she popped out of bed.
And she applied this to everything in her life and gradually, you know, things turned around. And then she wrote a book called The Five-Second Rule and it was about the, she wrote a whole book just about that countdown, which was brilliant. So, she's a really great example and people may may choose to be inspired by that to share their own stories.
The other thing is, it's kind of off-putting if you think the other person isn't like you. And when you get to the hard part of your journey, that's when the other person will connect with you. So, other person can say, oh well, wow, I mean I'm having problems with bill collectors calling, I'm having problems with not getting up in the morning. Mel Robbins used five, four, three, two, one. I'll try it, right? So, that can make it very relatable.
I mean, I'll tell another story. I had another time in my life where things were kind of desperate financially. My husband had died many years ago and I decided to get my MBA. I actually went to Italy in 2015 and got my MBA. And as anybody knows who's got an MBA, it costs a lot of money, it takes a lot of time. My business was on standstill and I had zero money left in the bank. I'm like, okay, I need to either get it when I graduate and I need to get a job or get business and I need to do so in the next tiny days because the credit card balances were getting out of hand.
So, what I actually did is, I took a one-hour interview and which was about marketing and messaging and entrepreneurship. People had known me before I got my MBA as the founder of the Grief Coach Academy. It's a pretty big shift to go from, hey, I help people through grief to, hey, would you like help with your book and publishing and messaging?
So, I reached out to somebody who had interviewed me before, the director of coaching at Tony Robbins. He said, yeah, I know you're an entrepreneur. I'd love to interview you about entrepreneurship and marketing and messaging.
So, I liked the interview, transcribed it and turned it into a little book called Marketing Fast Track and offered it to my small email list, which was about 12,000 people at that time. I offered the book for free. I did a little Alex Hermosi, years before Alex Hermosi, offered the book for free.
People paid a couple of bucks for shipping and then they got a sequence of videos building more, no like and trust and then some people booked a business breakthrough call with me at bookcall.biz. And the result was that little book generated $250,000 of new business in 90 days. Not $250,000 from selling the book.
The book was free, but $250,000 of new business in 90 days. So, the cash was great, but even more valuable was, oh, okay, people would like my help with their marketing and messaging, book publishing, media training. And I can, I can safely sell the Grief Ghost Academy and pivot to this new thing that I'm passionate about now, which was called, which is called same page publishing.
So, there's another example of, you know, mud on my face, desperate times, and it was communication that saved the day.

Agi Keramidas (32:43)
That's great. And very useful also as an example that you said. Aurora, before we start wrapping up this valuable, I believe, conversation we had, where would you like to direct the listener or the viewer of this conversation to learn more about your work and your book, which you mentioned a few times already?

Aurora Winter (33:09)
Ah, they can go to samepagepublishing.com to learn more about how I help people with launching as thought leaders. That's what same page publishing is not really a book publishing company per se, or not exclusively. We basically launch thought leaders.
So, people can learn more about that at samepagepublishing.com. And if they are ready to launch as a thought leader, they can sign up for a business breakthrough call, which is free. Or if they were, don't know if they're ready to be a thought leader, they can take a fun, fast, free quiz at thoughtleaderlaunch.com, thoughtleaderlaunch.com.
That's kind of fun. It's 20 quick questions to help you see if you are ready to launch as a thought leader. And then the 2026 version of Turned Words Into Wealth just came out, talks about seven different ways to make seven figures with your message. And that's available wherever books are sold.

Agi Keramidas (34:04)
Thank you. It has been, I said it already, and actually where I will refer to something we, you and I discussed just before we started recording the episode. And that was wisdom. It was the word wisdom or conveying wisdom.
And I won't necessarily use that word. I would like to believe that it has happened, but that, you know, it is bottom line. It is on the listener or the viewer of this conversation to decide about this.
I do believe that it did happen. I want to thank you very much for this conversation and all the examples and the blueprints, everything that you shared, because there is quite a lot condensed there for someone to absorb and convert it into their own actions.
And speaking of that, what I would like to ask you to end this conversation with, or your parting words, if you want, is something actionable to the person listening, who has listened to us now speaking for half an hour. What's something that you would like to leave them with? What is something that they can do or implement straight away or tomorrow morning so that they can, you know, make a progress in their life, in their career, in their business, in whatever it is that interests them?

Aurora Winter (35:36)
I have a 90-day challenge. It's free and it's fast and it will change your life, or that's my experience when I've done it, which is to commit for the next 90 days to write every day. It could be as little as five minutes, but just write every day, not necessarily to publish, just for your own observation of what's happening in your world.
And then read every day. And again, it could just be a page. Choose something that is inspiring to you or maybe challenge yourself and choose something distinct from what you normally read.
And then the third step is once a week, review what you have read and what you have written so that you can distill and pull out the wisdom.
So the first time that I did this, what I noticed is when I was writing, because I keep a journal, is I was complaining about the same things over and again. Well, that's okay for a day or for two, but for three months.
So what is just naturally helps to evolve to think, all right, if I'm complaining about this, I need to accept it or release it or forgive it.
So if I was complaining at that time that my husband was dead, well, that's not going to change. So I need to pray for forgiveness.
But if I'm complaining that my car is not washed, just wash the car. Right? Wash the car or hire the housekeeper.
The second thing is a lot of people read passively, but in order to just grab the wisdom in that book, read it actively. With Turnwords into Wealth, there's a free workbook that comes with it. Read actively. Yellow highlight right in the margins.
And then once a week, review that. And that process of writing every day, reading every day, and reviewing it once a week, I promise you, if you do that diligently for 90 days, fasten your seat belt because your life will improve.
And I want to say one last quick thing, which is I believe that all of us are creators. I believe that we were created in the image and likeness of the great creator. So being creative is part of the divine spark within each one of us. So write or record videos or record podcasts. And I think you'll find that very satisfying.

Agi Keramidas (38:01)
Indeed. Thank you very much.