#151 Self care for leaders, conflict & communication at work, and acknowledging others' emotions, with Liz Kislik.

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Episode Transcript

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0:03  
Welcome to the personal development mastery podcast. I'm Agi Keramidas. And my mission is to inspire you to grow, stand out and take action towards the next level of your life. I interview leaders, authors, successful entrepreneurs, spiritual teachers, exceptional people who will inspire you to improve your life. Tune in for two episodes each week, and make sure you subscribe to get them as soon as they are released. In today's show, I am delighted to speak with Liz Kislik. Liz, you're a management consultant and executive coach for 30 years you've worked with and helped from fortune 500 and national nonprofits to family run businesses. And you are a frequent contributor to Harvard Harvard Business Review. And Forbes. Your TEDx talk about conflict at work has received over a quantity of quarter of a million views and you're passionate about developing high performing leaders and workforces laser this my real pleasure to have you on the show today. Thank you again, I'm very happy to be with you. So my and I'm very much looking forward to to find out some things about leadership. And before I go there, I would like to ask ask you to give us a little bit of background, what I usually ask is during your journey of growth and progress, would you isolate a specific milestone moment that might be relevant for this conversation and share it with us?

1:54  
I don't know that it's a specific milestone. But there's a period, I think I was responsible for too much too young. When I was 23, I was responsible for a 300 person call centre. And it was the hardest job of my life. And you could never get it. All right. Everybody wanted something from you. You couldn't deliver. People were in conflict aggravated with each other, you couldn't always calm them down. Sometimes it was about the work. Sometimes it was about the people. And it was during that time that I really came to understand how much everything that happened was not about me. It was about the operation and the people in it. And that I was only relevant in so far as I could act in support of the work and in support of them. Nobody was looking for me as a person. It was really about the structures and the processes, and then the relationships. And that was a very, very valuable if sometimes painful lesson.

3:21  
How did your mindset or your actions change? After you had that lesson? What did you do differently?

3:30  
One of the things was I knew I didn't want that kind of job anymore. Because I would be dissatisfied almost every day. And I didn't like that I didn't think that was a good way to bring myself back to work the next day. It didn't help anybody. But the other things that I learned were, you know, there were really two things that were the most. One was that listening more is always better. No matter how much you've listened, you almost always need to listen more. And the other was, in a way oggy You know, it was not to be frightened. It was like that thing you say to children when there's a bug or a little, I don't know a little animal and you say oh, they're more frightened of you than you are of them. Not to be frightened. If you can keep calm. You will think of something useful to do. Other people are always looking for somebody who will stay calm and be what's a good word for it judicious in the moment, take a thoughtful action and move things forward. And that's been useful the entire rest of my career.

5:00  
And both of these points that you made are very valid. And I think both of them now that I am looking back at them, I wrote them down or both, I believe very important traits of leadership, the ability to listen much more, even when you think you've listened, listen more. And also not to be frightened, which I know you said it in this specific sense. But for me, I would also take it not to be frightened, generally of what might happen, in other words, to have a sense of belief or faith, if you want that it's going to be okay, provided that you do your part. I mean,

5:47  
yes, I don't know that I agree. 100%, that's great, that it's going to be okay. But I do believe 100%, that you can take some action that will move it forward. You know, some things just never really resolve. Sometimes, and this is very painful, particularly in the family businesses that I work in. Sometimes people just don't mean to work together. Sometimes it shouldn't be. Sometimes, the workplace can't satisfy all the needs a person has, you know, so it doesn't always work out, to stay together. But thinking about it some more to your point, it does always work out in some way, if you do the right things and separate the people who need to be separated.

6:48  
Absolutely. I think, what I meant, rather than what I said, What I meant was very similar to what you you've said right now, and actually taking this opportunity, I would like to ask you about communication, because this was I think, in some way, a typical example, when one says something, that is not exactly what they mean and the other person, obviously, in this setting, we were very friendly, but in a different setting. Maybe there could be some conflict of that show. Would you like to share a bit about communicating in this particular setting?

7:30  
Sure. The The first thing, and many of my early roles, involved care for customers in some way, even before I was responsible for groups of employees. And what I learned right away is that if you don't give them enough time and enough attention, they will make sure that you do that, if you cut them off too fast. They'll go through the whole thing again, to make sure you heard them. And so you might as well spend the time right at the beginning. So taking it slow, particularly in an oppositional kind of situation, and letting them really say. And then you can even say, Have you said all the things you wanted to say? And let them say yes, or let them add, and then say, Okay, here are the things I understood. And I found it helpful. I sometimes still do this even in person with people, I find it helpful to take notes to make sure I got it. Because you can forget things in the heat of the moment too easily. And then I like to review. So I think I understand that you have these four concerns. But concern number two is your real priority. So it's a way of giving it back to them. Both what they said and your take on it. If you can in a little package, almost not a long thing. Not with explanations of your own views, or explanations of why the thing happened in a bad way. None of that. It's just giving back to them your understanding of their concerns, their needs, and then checking again. Is that what you meant? Is there anything else you want me to know? Because there is a relief for them? You know, we call it baggage when we think about what people carry around with them. There's a relief in putting that stuff down. So having them feel really heard in some ways, gives them a kind of small win in the process, that can almost be a little relaxing or comforting to them. So that then when you say thank you for telling me all of that, it's so good to be grateful, even in an uncomfortable kind of situation. And then say, Alright, so if I'm understanding you correctly, now, let me start to address your concerns. explaining what you're doing is just like, it's better to, for the doctor to say, now I'm going to move your left knee, and you may hear a crunch, but don't worry about it, you know, explaining, annotating the process of the conversation as you are having it. Not only does it give them actual information, but there's a way in which it sort of equalises things, it says I'm here with you, I want to make sure you're understanding, we are doing this conversation together. Because the hope is that you will come out with a shared outcome. That may not be thrilling to both of you, but can at least be acceptable to both of you that you have agreement. And the best way to do that is to be in a shared process all the way through.

11:34  
Thank you for this very comprehensive answer. And I I really enjoyed what you were saying about taking the time to listen to understand and when someone has finished to ask them. Okay, is there anything else? Because usually that question, what else gives a second way of things and then repeating it back to them? What In short, what you have understood, but pretty much like what I'm doing right now, I think with what you told me. And this is a thing of fantastic way to first of all, to clarify that we're talking about the same thing, and there is no Miss maths here. And I want to, let's say put another twist in this scenario. How should one deal with the motional response that might be triggered by a conversation like this, because you know, sometimes many times that emotional response takes over our best part of what we would like to, you know, discuss or share. And we behave, or the other person will behave in not the way that they wanted to show what's your thoughts and tips on the handling the emotional aspect of these conversations.

13:06  
So because there are different emotions, there may be slightly different things. I was thinking, as you were giving me back what I was what I had said before, the value of spending the time is the gift of understanding. Because who doesn't hunger to be understood? Do you know anyone I don't know anyone, we all want to be understood want to be accepted as we are, that's a given of humanity. For someone who is angry. Understanding as a first step can help take the edge off that. On the other hand, for someone who is upset or hurt or frightened, the fact that you are actually understanding them, you'll often see them cry, because they've been holding on to the emotion, trying to be professional trying to be clear, trying to not let it hurt them. And then when they feel understood, and they actually take a full breath, and their body feels less under threat, the relief can trigger sadness and regret. So you may actually end up with more emotion from making this investment in the relationship. So the first thing about emotion is to just decide that it's okay with you. So long as you are not being physically threatened in any way in which case you should get out of there as fast as you can. And so long as someone is not speaking in abusive ways in which case, the thing to do is to stop the conversation, whether you just say you need a break, or you say you have to get something or whatever it is, it's good to break that off if someone's behaving abusively. But if a person just has regular emotions because of the situation, except that that's true. The people who don't accept it, I am actually thinking about particular clients as I'm speaking to you. Then they are closing themselves off and almost holding the other person away from them. It's like, don't really tell me I don't really want to know, it's too much for me. And although they may be trying to defend themselves, what you actually see is a kind of fearfulness or brittleness. And then the other person has to decide what they're going to do, are they going to push it? Or will they no longer wish to communicate with this person, and whether your team is you and one other human, or 1000s of people. If people don't want to communicate with you, your ability to make decisions for ever after is compromised, if you can't learn from what's going on what they see their experiences and perceptions. So you have to be okay with the idea that people are going to bring emotion. On the other hand, you don't have to let them wash you in it. So whether they are angry or upset, it is completely useful and legitimate to say, either I can see that, or I notice, or if you're on the telephone, I hear in your voice that but setting it up by calling out, in effect your physical experience of it, it's your recognition of it. Not saying you're very angry right now, which is an accusation and almost threatening. But I see that you look angry, I see that you might be feeling upset. So you are preserving their dignity. You are not making it an accusation, what you're doing is sharing your recognition that they are experiencing some state. So I notice that this may be hard for you would now be a good time to take a break. Is there something I can do to be helpful, or

17:55  
if people are crying, hand them a box of tissues, if you have it. Any kind of upset offering someone a drink of water is a humane act, and gives them time to gather themselves. So you can create a little break in the action. So that if they have the capacity and the intention, they can gather themselves up again. And most people do. This is different. Of course, if someone has experienced a death in the family, and then let them cry, you know, don't try to get them to stop, at least not for a few minutes. But preserving their dignity. And showing that it's okay with you makes it more likely that they can go on to the content.

18:48  
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21:46  
Okay. The first thing about self care, it is used, I think too much in the popular media right now to be things like, get a manicure or get a massage, you know, I'm not thinking about that those are great. If you like those, please do them, but do them because you like them. There is great value in having pleasure in your life, whether you are a leader or not. So within your means, do that when it's good for you. I think of self care for leaders as a kind of strengthening, because leaders need to strengthen themselves all the time. And then a kind of repair. Because one of the jobs of leaders is to carry weight for others. And sometimes as in the conversation, we've been having it's emotional weight. And sometimes say, through the pandemic, there have been many businesses that have had to furlough or lay off workers. The leader should feel somewhat burdened by that, knowing that you are putting people out of work, you should feel bad about that. Not because you are a bad person. But because it is harmful to another human being that you have come to know. And there should be some pain in that I think that's responsible. So strengthening and repair. The first thing, and I only wish oggy that I would practice what I preach is sleeping enough. Because we are all better when we sleep, even though it is very exciting, to stay up late and do other things. And it's just crucial. And they've known that since the time of the ancients, and it's in Shakespeare, and we don't take it seriously enough. So that's really crucial. And exercise is crucial. Moving is idle, you don't have to be a triathlete. Just moving. Walking around. One of the things that's so rough now about all these video conferences, I used to have more phone calls, and I would pace. And so you have energy and you have blood flow, and it's just healthier for your entire being including your brain. And as a leader, I think you have a responsibility to preserve your brain. And your brain needs exercise as much as your body does. So those two things are really important. Third thing is making sure that you are eating and drinking at appropriate intervals for you. And I'm not talking about nutrition specifically, I'm talking about not getting into that state where you are agitated Did or what here in the US is often called hangry, the combination of hungry and angry, because then you're not open to what's happening, you're already eating yourself, you know. So that's really important. And then the other thing that is self care for leaders is learning. Having new ideas is a gift. Sometimes you can have them just by sitting and being with yourself and you think thoughts you haven't had before. But most of us need external input from time to time. And so whether it's something that you've been curious about that has nothing to do with work at all, for example, I just read something about an app that will identify birdsong. So you know what birds are in the area that sounded so exciting to me, nothing to do with work.

26:00  
Or it may be reading or podcasts or whatever, about subjects that are important to you, on the job, new things in your head, just prevent you from falling into rote behaviour, give you the chance to refresh. And when you are refreshed, your people can approach you in new ways. If you grind yourself into the ground, they sit, you probably know this. But in case you don't, they say to each other, Oh, don't go talk to her today, she's in a bad mood, you know, they size you up. So if they see that you are curious and interested in aware, they want to come talk to you. And then you learn more about what's going on in your business. That's all good. So that's the kind of building up. And then the repair is when you are fried, burnt, crisp, remove yourself and be with people who love you who are not looking for you to make decisions for them, you know, get some nourishment from other humans. That's one. A second one is that being in nature is wonderfully soothing. And if you're too impatient, to go for a hike or whatever, just go stand by a tree for five minutes and then go back, it will actually be better. small doses are fine. But nature is wonderful, very hard exercise. Anything vigorous. Dancing is great. Because then you have music also. And that's wonderful. any aspect of the arts can be healing, when you are feeling like things are too much. No, when you need time off or have a trusted advisor who will tell you I have worked with business owners who had someone on staff who would know to say, time for a break, let's get a cup of coffee in a particular tone. And the leader who had a little humility would say, Oh, good, and then go. So do self soothing things like that, as opposed to just descending into either negative thinking or obsessive, you know, video watching.

28:42  
There are a few,

28:44  
quite a few indeed. And actually, I think it's of them is so important. And I'm thinking for because I always try to give to the listener something actionable. And I think right now, you just gave seven or eight, very simple to do actionable things that are very important. And a couple that I will mention very quickly. One was the eating and drinking at the right intervals. Because I and I will speak personally, I know that feeling that crankiness that. And I understand that that is time for me to take a break and go and eat something rather than trying to push through whatever I have in front of me because it doesn't work. And the other one was, you said no one needs time, or have someone trusted to tell that for you with? Yes, sometimes our blind spots are what that's why they call them blind spots, as well. So thank you for this wonderful and simple ways that anyone can utilise peak summon as a means to self care. Lisa will, I would also like to ask you some quickfire questions to start wrapping this conversation now. Okay. The first one I always ask is what does the term personal development mean to you?

30:19  
So it's two things, I guess. One is continued learning, which can be done in all kinds of forms. But the other is that it's personal. It is learning for you, so that you can be more of who you are. And not just necessarily to please somebody else.

30:43  
Thank you. And let's say you could go back in time and meet your 18 year old self, what's one piece of advice you would give her?

30:54  
Don't be so afraid. Even if you make a mistake, you can almost always go back and do something to repair. We can figure out most things.

31:14  
That's great. And one more hypothetical question, then, let's say you could wave a magic wand and change something in the world as it is today. What would you change?

31:28  
I think I would go back to something we talked about earlier. oggy. If we could all truly listen, not just spend time, but truly listen and listen from the other person's perspective. And take it in. really understand it, and then do whatever we did. I think things would shift in positive ways.

31:57  
Should why less? Well, how can people connect with you and find out more about you and what you do?

32:07  
Oh, thank you Auggie. The best place is probably my website, www dot Lizz kislak.com, I assume you'll have it in the show notes. And if they go there, I actually have a free ebook. If anybody in your audience wants it, it is about the interpersonal aspects of conflict. And I have loads of blogs and articles and podcasts about the kinds of things we've been talking about and other aspects of leadership that may be helpful. And of course, they can also find me on LinkedIn and on Twitter.

32:46  
That's great. And there were so many things that we could have talked about, obviously, and I was explaining that before we started that I have to select, and go led bit not in much depth, but in adequate depth in two or three things with them that allows so I want to thank you very much for our conversation for your time and sharing your insights with me today. And I want to wish you all the very best with carrying on with your mission and your journey. Any last parting words?

33:26  
I thank you again, I really enjoyed it. You asked me some things that I thought about differently from how I had thought about before. And I love that to have a new thought even about oneself just gives you new perspective. So I encourage everybody to try to do that.

33:50  
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