#317 Uncovering the alchemy of everlasting happiness, with Martin O'Toole (part 2).

EPISODE TRANSCRIPTION

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Martin O'Toole  0:00  
So many people, for whatever reason led to believe that there is a there's the you get up to the top of this hill and then that's it that and then of course they're disappointed, and perhaps even depressed and disillusioned when that's not the case. Newsflash, we are all teachers. We are all learners, we will be learning until the end of time.

Agi Keramidas  0:29  
You're listening to personal development mastery, empowering you with the simple and consistent actions needed to master personal development and create a life of purpose and abundance. I'm your host, Agi Keramidas. And my mission is simple to inspire you to take action towards a purposeful and fulfilling life. In this podcast, I invite myself inside the minds of remarkable entrepreneurs, authors, thought leaders, spiritual teachers. So if you're ready to find practical insights that you can implement right now, make sure you follow the podcast and get the episodes as soon as they are released. This is the second part of my intriguing conversation with Martin O'Toole. In the previous part, we discussed how to die happy and if you haven't listened to that yet, go to the previous episode 316. Today we discuss happiness, presents, and more. Let's dive right in. You know, as far as I'm concerned, you know it deep inside yourself. If if you're living this kind of life, and you feel unfulfilled, and you feel empty and you feel then that is a clear sign as far as I'm concerned again that there is something not right there you need to seek something else if you are living the rat race and you're on top of the world with your life, by all means carry carry it up, but I don't think there are that's the minority of the people, the majority are this, you know, the the quiet desperation as solo used to?

Martin O'Toole  2:18  
Yeah, say

Agi Keramidas  2:19  
no, that's

Martin O'Toole  2:20  
actually you make an interesting make an interesting point, one of the things that I am keen to talk about as well as is what happiness is and what happiness is not. You know, we are, we are programmed, albeit societally and familiarly and all the things we discussed earlier on, and personally to to want to get on that wheel and to make a load of money into obtain a status and to get a BMW or whatever your car is of choice to have a Rolex or a pan array or a Breitling watch to have an x y Zed house to live in this neighbourhood. All of these things are all what milestones, right? And, and I, I would argue that they're all illusory milestones. And, and I say that not to criticise financial success or to criticise the idea of being motivated to do things. I'm a former business owner of multiple businesses. So I understand business and I understand the need for comfort. And of course, we must earn money to to obtain comfort. But I think fundamentally, the point is that we we have some funny ideas about about what successes and about what happiness is because if we're seeking happiness, externally, from form, from the Watch the car, the state, the job, the salary, and other people as well, you know, then we're in danger of of clinging on to illusions, and there was a 13th century Sufi poet Rumi said it best when he said maybe you are searching among the branches for what only appears in the roots. And I remember coming across that particular pros early on in this journey, and then taking a cold hard look at myself and look at looking at my past and realising God that's me, isn't it? That's all I've done. I've just spent I've just spent my whole life seeking happiness externally from other people from things hoping that these things were going to create my identity that they were, they were going to give me a sense of of self, but in reality, they are not as we are not our stuff. We are not our job. We are not, we're not 99% of the things that we actually think we are. So it's something I'm usually quite keen to discuss on this level. And of course, it's in the book as well, because some people do genuinely think they are happy on the face of it. And of course, a little bit defensiveness comes out, doesn't it? I'm happy, I don't need you to tell me how to be happy. I am happy. Okay, well, perhaps you are, perhaps you fundamentally are. But but let's talk about what happiness actually is. Because I'm not talking about your job. I'm not talking about your bank balance. And I'm not talking about your house, you watch your car, or how many holidays you have a year. That's not That's not what happiness is to me.

Agi Keramidas  5:43  
For me, neither. And I think for me, it's more connected to a deeper sense of fulfilment about one's life rather than, you know, the temporary or the transient feelings of feelings of elation, when when you have something nice happening. There was a there is a quote in your book about happiness, and I wrote it down, I will say it for me, it gives a fantastic definition and a meaning, even though it's not simple to understand, but it's only one phrase, and it says, happiness is the absence of the striving for happiness. And I think in this answer, I hadn't read it before Martin, I didn't know down who is it by but I read it in your book, and I just read it and I thought, Oh, my God, the answer is in there, you have to really look and contemplate on this phrase, but it really explains that happiness. Yeah. It's not something you can go after it. In a way

Martin O'Toole  6:51  
grab. Exactly. Well, I can't remember. I can't remember who that was. Was that loud, sir? Or was it Maslow, I can't remember, their I quote, there are probably 60 to 100 quotes in that book, other people significantly more wise than I, but But yeah, that takes us back to the Buddha, quote I threw out earlier on attachment is the root of all suffering. Now, I am not a guru, not an enlightened being, I'm not a coach, I'm not a PhD. I'm a man on the mend, as you said earlier on. Ultimately, I would say I am an expert in suffering. I'd say I'm an expert in self suffering, as well co created suffering, as most of us are, if we're willing to accept that we are actually co responsible for the lion's share of our suffering. But the point is, this is the this is the the treasure. And if we can get our head around this particular wisdom, this is the key the absolute key to unlocking a lot of this mystery. So Buddha says attachment is the root of all suffering, then we have to ask ourselves, what is attachment there? Well, I think we've we've discussed that now. And that is the idea of clinging on to things. But we've also, we've also identified that all things are in a state of flux, a state of change, they are impermanent. So by that rationale, is it wise to cling on to something that we know is going to change? Nay, it might end, it might change to the point of ending. So if we can fully grasp impermanence as a universal constant, then we can change our relationship with everything around us, we must realise that all things are going to change or end. Therefore we cannot cling to them. And it's in the clinging, that the suffering where the suffering is born. So we have to try to reframe everything we think we know about our relationship with everything in our world, and we have to stop clinging to them. We've got to we've, we can connect, of course, you know, I'm talking about your husband or your wife here as well right now or even your children, you know. And of course, some people might say, oh, yeah, I'm talking about my children dying, but they're going to, so we must, must, must have that conversation. Because if we keep shutting ourselves down, every time we we start to have this conversation, then we will never, ever grow individually or collectively. What's the point you may ask? Well, the point is really simple. And you already alluded to at the beginning of this conversation again, if we can do all of that stuff that I just suggested, and I know it's not a 10 minute job. It's a task. There's a lot of work that has to go into this. Then suddenly, we become present. We become grateful and aware for the absolute bliss in the present. That moment. You know, I always say Eckhart Tolle said, One conscious breath is a meditation. Now people constantly say to me, I can't meditate. And, and I respect that because I remember being in that state in in that place myself for a few years back, and I remember being angry with myself because I couldn't meditate because it couldn't be still because it couldn't be at peace. But then you think about Eckhart Tolle is wisdom.

Martin O'Toole  10:39  
What happened? Just then? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I wasn't thinking about anything. You might have been thinking, what the hell's Martin doing? And maybe the audience was, but maybe some people actually caught the breath as well and went, Oh, yeah, that's nice. Let's let's do that. Let's have a conscious breath. So that right there is presence is what Eckhart Tolle refers to is the power of now. And it's what mindfulness teachers for 1000s of years have referred to as now NIS. So if we can stop regretting the past, we can stop worrying about fractal futures that, incidentally, are likely not even to happen. Then what have we got left? We've got now. So who am I right now? How do I feel right now? Actually, I feel great. I'm having a fantastic conversation with you. And I'm hoping that this is this is helpful for other people. And, you know, I'm now living the rest of my life and service to others. So So I want this, this sort of stuff to help people to reframe their perspective on life. But in the in this moment, I am in flow state, I am accepting I am aware, I am present and I'm grateful. Now, because when we start to think about all of those things, and then you play back your, your top 10 regrets, start to ask yourself, Okay, hang on a minute, am I grateful for my parents? Yes, I am. Well hang on a minute. In that list of regrets I've written, I would regret that I had missed, I hadn't spoken to my dad for 12 months, because we fell out over the most petty thing possible, for example. So these are the exercises that we should be doing to learn this wonderful thing of presence of nowness. And then to apply it to, to our world around us. And that is living well. And that's ultimately the point. Now, if you managed to do all of that in a day, doesn't matter, actually, less doesn't matter. Because even if you did one of those things in a day, then that's one less regret. So but if you did manage to fix a lot of these things in a day, imagine how much progress you've just made for you. And for those close to you. And, of course, there are many, many beautiful byproducts as a result of this work, it's like, it's like dropping a pebble in a pond, you know, the ripple effect, carries on and on and on. So anyway, I rambled on there, I apologise. I was on my soapbox about presence.

Agi Keramidas  13:29  
No, not at all, not at all, Martin, I was enjoying listening to it. And I was thinking also when you stopped for the breath, and that, that moment of presence, and as how important it is, and how it can, it has the power to really break everything that was happening. And I mean, mentally happening in your inner world and your inner experience, just breaking it and giving it an opportunity to have something different, because you got unstuck of whatever was happening there. So it is it is key just to let that moment that stopping that breathing that presents it can open up in a whole new world on the other side. And you know, the more this is practice than done, the more it becomes, you know, like a constant ideal state a second nature indeed, it might be difficult at the beginning. And I like how you tied it with the previous exercise of the regrets because I think and I see it in your book or reading your book and I also have it in the podcast. I want always to give some tools, some techniques, something in the implementable to do because it's not about the theory the it's not about the information there is all the information is out there there are, I don't know, how many books are there, Martin, I don't know if you know, the total number of all books have been that have been written must be many, how many? How many hundreds of millions or whatever. So the knowledge is there, it's how to convert that into, you know, wisdom into practice into doing something with it rather than having to remain as, you know, knowledge in the head.

Martin O'Toole  15:30  
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because it's part of the point of my book and my hair today Happy podcast, as well as is to, is to discuss curated wisdom, discuss personal stories, that therefore you can apply that wisdom to you can draw these correlations, but we must, must, must, and therefore often do in the book is littered with them. offer practical utilities. I, I think I think I've read, it's funny, because I never read a self help book before. All of this happens, you know, I mean, I'm 47 years old. Now, I don't think I'd read a self help book before I was 40. No way, wasn't interested in personal development, because I thought I thought I'd I'd worked it all out, I thought I was brilliant. Which is quite ridiculous when I when I think back, but I say that with love and no judgement to Martin version 1.0. But, but I have read many self help books that the do hit you up with a great deal of theory, but they're not relatable, you know, it's quite hard to, it's quite hard to put it put it into practice. And as certainly, you know, you think about where we all are on our, on our journey, we're at different stages, different places, and no person is in the wrong place. And no person is in the right place. There's no such thing. We're all just walking each other home, you know, that's the point. So wherever you are on the journey, is wherever you are, and that's the perfect place to be. But, but of course, it is very difficult if you're watching or listening to authors or podcasters, or whatever lead thought leaders in the self help space who talk about a lot of this stuff. And it might feel actually quite impossible to achieve. And then therefore a lot of people just think I shouldn't even bother, because I don't know, I can't see a possibility for me getting from there to there. I just don't see it. And I think that's that's where the the the use of practical utilities is is absolutely paramount. So there are plenty of those in the book as well.

Agi Keramidas  17:41  
Absolutely, thank you for the reiterating the importance of it. And I will I will leave that as an exercise for the listener that contemplate on the regrets that one might have if their life was about to end. Martin, I have well, you know, there are many, many more things that we could talk about for sure. You know, I have some questions that I will ask you in a in a moment, just some quick questions, shall we say that they always ask to my guests. Before I do that, I would like to ask you to where would you direct a listener who wants to find out more about you the podcast? The book, what's the best place or places to go?

Martin O'Toole  18:33  
Yeah, great question. Well, the book is called How to die happy. It looks like that. You can find it on Amazon Barnes and Noble Waterstones. Many other online platforms. There is an ebook version, like a Kindle thing. There is an audio version so you can buy it on all the audio audio platforms as well. And the audio version, I underrated my partner, Jules has read all the meditations and the breathwork sessions in there. And actually, I recorded many sounds of the nature around Indonesia, we've done we've travelled all over Indonesia, and they took a very expensive sound recorder. And I've recorded you know, the jungle for example, or the the rain forests of batukaru. So you can hear those sounds in the background. If you choose to get the audio book, I figured barley had provided a set of healing for me. So it was only right that I shared that with with audio listeners of the book. I am on Instagram which is Martino tool. The podcast is how today Happy underscore podcast or you can find the book at how to they happy book.com or the podcast how today Happy podcast.com I think pretty much if you Google Martin O'Toole, how today happy these days. I'm all over that Google business.

Agi Keramidas  19:53  
Before we continue, I want to share something with you that I believe you will find incredibly valuable We are drowning in information but starving for wisdom. And with over 300 episodes, this podcast has plenty of it, but who has the time to listen to all of them. That's why I've curated the top 10 podcast episodes offering the greatest value in each of the three main categories of life, money, health, and self mastery. Get your free resource now by clicking the link in the show notes or by visiting personal development, mastery. podcast.com/top 10. Now, let's continue where we left off. Thank you. And that's a very interesting point about the audiobook. I wasn't aware of that because I read the book, but it's what you've done sounds like a very fitting that I was looking for the award. Thank you. Thank you. So beautiful. Martin, let me ask you, then a couple of my quick questions, to start wrapping things up. And the first one I'm very interested to see, especially with your with your journey, what does personal development mean to you?

Martin O'Toole  21:14  
Well, I think personal development means first and foremost, learning some self awareness. So it has to begin with the number one question who am I? And not what am I? OR and NOT what have I been, it's who am I. And therein lies the beginning of the process, which, which will then or should then really involve something called Shadow Work, where you, you really do come to terms with who you have been what you've said, done all the dirty, dirty, deep secrets that perhaps not many people know about. So I think I think personal development is a process whereby we decide that we realise that we are not happy, we are not content, we are unfulfilled, or there are a number of things in our lives, that we know we could do in a different way. So we want to make change. That is the definition of personal development is it's making personal changes to live a happier, healthier, more fulfilled life. And there is a process to it. Well, there are many processes out there in those multi-million self help books you highlighted earlier. And there's a process in my book called The Anatomy of happy, which is essentially a personal development process.

Agi Keramidas  22:35  
Can I add to that what you just said about the process?

Agi Keramidas  22:39  
Excuse me, my personal addition to that would be and tell me if you agree that it is ongoing? It doesn't have it? And

Martin O'Toole  22:49  
absolutely, I'm just really glad you made that point. Because Because I think so many people are for whatever reason led to believe that there is a there's the you get up to the top of this hill. And then that's it that and then of course they're disappointed, and perhaps even depressed and disillusioned. When that's not the case. Newsflash, we are all teachers, we are all learners, we will be learning until the end of time. And I say the end of time, I'm not talking about necessarily the transitional phase of death. I mean, the end of time. So yeah, it's an important thing to realise that it's always ongoing. But you know, I don't know about you. But when I realised that I knew nothing. Or rather, when I began to learn so much, the more I learned, the more I realised, then you nothing. And I actually love that it's a wonderful place to be.

Agi Keramidas  23:50  
While it was so Kritis, which said that one thing, there's one thing I know that I know nothing? So if that if that yes, you know, the more you know, it's tempting to start assuming that you have all the answers, but that you either have to be a guru or a very stupid one. And I don't think I don't know many good.

Martin O'Toole  24:15  
I think the reality is the more or you learn, the more you realise you, there is more to learn. You know, that's the funny thing about it. It's it's never ending, which is actually a beautiful truth to embrace.

Agi Keramidas  24:28  
And I will. You said earlier on, there was something about happiness about achieving happiness or lasting habits. I don't remember the phrase that you used and I think what we will just say now is again appropriate that there is no point where you do achieve the happiness and then you have to do nothing and happiness is always there. It is something that yes, you learn the process of doing it and then you keep on doing it, it is a I don't know if the word effort is the best word to describe it. But there is certainly an element of doing actively being happy rather than you know, yeah. Yeah.

Martin O'Toole  25:18  
Well, the Dallas, the Dallas have a beautiful word. And it's Wu Wei. And wu wei means effortless action, which essentially is another way of saying flow state. And I think that would be an appropriate way to describe the kind of action that you're talking about. Because it's effortless. It's not, it's something that you must, well, we weigh our flow state, really, it sits at the converging point between discipline and surrender. So if we've got those, the utilities, those tools in our box, the discipline, and then we've got this acceptance of impermanence and all these other things that we've talked about surrender, that's where flow exists. I often say, happiness is if we if we believe if we agree, which I think we do that all things in this world are impermanent, then we must also agree that happiness is impermanent, right? But here's the paradoxical, beautiful truth about that. If we know that, then paradoxically, we can still be happy. Because we know that happiness is just around the corner. So you know, how do I even know what happiness is? I don't even know what happiness looks like, unless I know what sadness looks like, right? Just as I don't know what Black is. Without white. We live in a realm of duality of polarity. These the two must exist together. And I don't know when it happened and how it happened. But we've been programmed to believe we should just be seeking the good stuff all the time. Well, newsflash, if we had the good stuff all the time, then we wouldn't know it was good stuff. There would be no distinction. So we have to have the ups and downs to appreciate the ups and downs, you know, if that makes any sense whatsoever. And all of that is really where we can we can actually achieve ongoing happiness, and it's real. And it's what I call the Zen ven awareness, acceptance, gratitude and presence. So once you've done all that foundational work to get up the hill, if you like, then every day, we must be working with awareness, acceptance, gratitude and presence in every moment. And that's how we can actually achieve a good degree of shall we say, contentedness, shall we say maybe stillness or peace? Mindfulness, you know, rather than happiness, which I think gets a that word has a lot of pressure doesn't it brings so much pressure with it?

Agi Keramidas  27:50  
Absolutely. And Martin, let me ask you one last hypothetical question. If you could go back in time and meet your 18 year old self, what's one piece of advice you would give him?

Martin O'Toole  28:05  
Learn to love. So like tell him maybe I'd tell him to buy bitcoin as well. But I think gonna tell him when to sell it. Yeah, learn to love it. You know, I, there's a chapter in the book, woulda, coulda, shoulda talking about regrets. And because many people spend a lot of time saying, Oh, if I could go back to that time and make a different choice, then I wouldn't be in this. Bla bla bla, I wouldn't want to upset the timeline that got me to this place now. So I don't regret anything of my past. Because as much as it was a hell of a life. With an awful lot of pain and suffering. A lot of it co created. The entire experience has been laced with lessons. And in recent years, I now embrace those lessons. So I've gone from being the guy who used to say, Why is this happening to me to now saying, What is this teaching me? Where's that? What's the lesson here? That doesn't matter what it is, you know, I'm looking for the lessons. So, you know, I even found myself saying a few years back, thank you for the gift of trauma. And I was referring to my whole family life and you know, growing up as a kid, so yeah, all I would say to 18 year old Martin is learn to love because fundamentally, that's really all we are all here to do. And, and I think we have a very, we also have quite a perverse relationship with with the concept of love, which similarly to happiness. Could be, we could scratch the surface and dig a lot deeper to fund them fundamentally understand that

Agi Keramidas  29:54  
Matawan, thank you very much for a truly fascinating conversation. I enjoyed it. And I hope we have given some expansion some something we have added something I believe we have. Thank you very much. It was really a pleasure. I will leave it to you will say your parting words or final thoughts on what we discussed about.

Martin O'Toole  30:27  
Yeah, well, thank you for having me. First and foremost, I've really enjoyed talking to you. I always enjoy talking to you, though you've got a wonderful way and I'm sure your audience feels exactly the same way as I do. I find you very pacifying to listen to. So thanks for having me on the show. I think I would just I would just leave people with the fundamental thought that loud so once said, The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. And I think one of them one of the many reasons why we don't do this work this personal development work is because it looks like an impossibly long and unachievable journey. Or we might say, well, it's too late for me. And I'm here to say, it's not too late. I'm 47 years old. And they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Well, this old dog taught himself new tricks. Only a few years ago, I had a loaded shotgun to my face. And I was this close from blow my own brains out. And now, fast forward to 2023, age 47. I'm on a podcast, talking to a really cool guy about a book that I've written about this stuff. I live in Bali, I'm engaged with this incredible yogi. We've got two dogs, the sunshine in, I've got breath in my lungs. So so grateful to be alive. So fundamentally, I want that, that idea for everyone. I want anybody and everybody to know that they can embrace change at any time, even if it's in the last breath. So, you know, let's do it. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And thanks for listening to me, everybody.

Agi Keramidas  32:12  
Thank you for listening, and I hope you got valuable insights from today's episode. Follow personal development mastery in Apple podcasts or Spotify so that you'll get notified each time a Europe episode is available. If you already follow the show, then share it with a friend who you think will benefit from listening. Until next time, stand out Don't fit in