#496 Why “go with the flow” is misleading for self-mastery, and how to navigate life’s challenges with ease, with Bob Martin.

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

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Please note that while an effort is made to provide an accurate transcription, errors and omissions may be present.

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Agi Keramidas:
0:00

How can we navigate life's challenges with more ease and flow, even when the tide seems against us? Welcome to personal development mastery, the podcast that helps intelligent, busy professionals develop self mastery and discover their calling so you can thrive in a fulfilling, purposeful life. I am your host, Agi Keramidas, and this is episode 496, by listening to this episode, you are going to discover transformative lessons from a Taoist master on mastering your life through minimal interference, you will also understand how meditation isn't about clearing your mind, but about cultivating the powerful ability to begin again. This is one of the most insightful and outstanding conversations ahead in the podcast. So listen in, and before we dive in, remember my fellow mastery seeker, if you want to go deeper into the episode, join us at our free community, mastery seeker tribe. Go to mastery seeker.com now let's get started. Today. It is my real pleasure to speak with Bob. Martin. Bob, you have a story as extraordinary as it is inspiring. You were once a high powered criminal trial lawyers, but your journey took you from the courtroom to the meditation cushion, transforming you into a mindfulness mentor, professor and author. Your mission is to help others break free from limiting beliefs, live with clarity and navigate life with wisdom, humour and ease, Bob, I'm delighted to have you with me today. Welcome and

Bob Martin: 2:07

I am delighted to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Agi Keramidas: 2:11

I'm looking forward for this conversation, Bob and the let's say the overarching theme or topic that I would like to explore with you, at least mainly, is navigating life with with ease, with flow, with humour, which is as As you know, not many people's experience of life. So before we go there, I would like you to tell us from I was reading your story, and you have studied under a 72nd, generation Taoist Master for most of us, I think that title for me, it. It brings to mind someone very wise and very old, perhaps with a white, long beard, but that's what I can imagine. I would like you. Do you want to share with us, perhaps some profound wisdom or teaching that you've learned from,

Bob Martin: 3:24

oh so many, so many, when I studied with Master knee, and, yeah, just think about that 72 generations. That's about 1400 years of father passing down wisdom to son, yes, over generations. And of course, you know the Shaolin Temple is where, you know the TV show kung fu was centred. And so, you know, Kung Fu, tai chi, the ageing, all of these are Daoist practices. It's kind of like a sister to Buddhism. And, yeah, I studied under Master knee for six years. Not that I went. I did not go to the Shaolin Temple. He came to Miami and and came and he had a group there, a Taoist group that he sponsored and and taught at. And he was, he was the transformational mentor that brought me from, you know, that world of money and legal to a much happier life. Let's put it that way. But I remember one time we said to him, and he, I will tell you this, he always chuckled and giggled a lot. He was 72 years old when I met him, and he looked no more than 45 his face was wrinkle free. He was as supple as a baby. He could sit on his heels and just amazing. And he was one. Those folks who, the moment you met him, you said, this guy's got it. He knows he understands, and I want to know what he knows. So just feed me. You know. Just feed me, please. So one day, we asked Master knee, why do they call you master? And he said, well, because I have mastered life. And He chuckled and walked away. He was always chuckling. So we got him a little bit later, and we said, Well, come on now tell us. What does it mean to master life? And His face became serious, and he looked at us, and he said, When you can interfere the least and have the desired impact. And when you know what the desired impact is, you have begun to master life. And it just even sends chills down me today. But it's that. It's that interfering the least. And you know, so many of us live feeling that we're responsible for everything. We carry the weight of the world on our shoulders. We exhaust ourselves with work that perhaps is not efficient or effective, and what, what Taoism really studies, is going with the flow. It is not, you know, a God based religion, although it did come out of the shamanistic traditions of ancient ancient China. But still, it has developed into something which is much more psychological than it is anything else. And what it teaches is it teaches that going with the flow has a certain trap to it. Most people think when they hear going with the flow, oh, I'll just take my hands off the wheel. And you know, la di da di da Life is but a dream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, I'm floating down the stream. And it's not like that. You know, life's not like that. Unfortunately. You know the stream, if you go with the flow, and you use the metaphor of a river, most of us think of floating down a very calm, tranquil River, going with the flow. But you know, there are rapids, there is white water, there are waterfalls, there are hurricanes, there are floods, there are gentle April rains, there's due there's so many different aspects of what the flow is that we have to be sensitive to it. Because if I'm in my canoe and the water is calm, that's true. I don't have to pay too much attention to it. But when the water becomes rapid and there's white water, I have to attend to it very carefully. Otherwise, I'll tip over. So there's two different ways of going with the flow, depending on what the flow is and what what Taoism teaches is. It teaches not only how to identify the slow the flow in human transactions, but also how to align yourself appropriately with it. If I can use one of my favourite metaphors, imagine that you're out in the ocean and you want to swim into shore. So there's three ways to do it. One, you could panic and probably drown, not the best way. Two, you could just say, I need to get to shore and I'm going to swim there, and just swim there. Or three, you can take a look and notice that the tide moves towards shore and it moves away from shore, and it alternates. It goes forward and it comes back. So if I'm going to align myself with that when it's going towards the shore, I'm going to take advantage of it, and I'm going to swim with all my might, but when it goes against the shore, I'm not going to fight it, but I'm not going to let it sweep me out to sea either. I want to conserve my energy and use only what's necessary to hold my position and wait and be patient until the tide changes and is going with me again, and then swim like heck, and then pause and swim like heck. This way, I'll get to shore and I'll be. Energised I will have gotten I will have been effective in that I achieved my goal, and I will have been efficient in that I interfered the least and used the most efficient capacities that I personally had to apply. So I was efficient and effective. I get to shore, I am energised and have more energy to move forward with other things. So this is, this is what Taoism teaches. And you know, in human transactions, what we're talking about is sometimes the situation is very propitious, and it seems like everything that you do works. So these are the times of great advance. Other times in life, it seems like you're walking in mud and everything is hard and nothing's working. So these are the times where you kind of back away a little bit and contemplate and think and wait for the situation to change, and while you're waiting, use the time to refine your presentation. So now you're being effective and efficient, and you're going with the flow, and you're using it to your best advantage. And you know, getting developing that skill, and it is a skill, the good news is that it can be learned. It doesn't come to us naturally, but it can be learned. And living that life is a life that is just a lot easier.

Agi Keramidas: 11:46

Bob, thank you so much for this answer. There were so many things I could start an entirely new podcast conversation from each of them, the one that I really enjoyed because I hadn't, at least heard this story before, was with the swimmer that wants to reach the shore, and, you know, observing the tide that changes in using it to their advantage. I suppose, from that particular when you were saying the story, there were two things that came to my mind as probably the challenges with, you know, following through that. The first is to actually realising that the tide has changed, because many, many of us don't until it is way too obvious. And the second is, okay, the diet has changed. There is, you know, that inner perhaps resistance to, you know, feeling passive, of or feeling powerless or not feeling in control, that may make it difficult to stick to the plan of just maintaining position and waiting for the inevitable tide to turn. So this were my two you know, I think the challenges, so I would like to hear your your wisdom on that. So

Bob Martin: 13:18

these, these challenges you speak of are the result of the conditioning that's been imposed on us throughout our life. It is caused by the filters through which the world, the information you know, comes into our mind you know, either through our eyes or our ears or our tents of feelings, but But it gets filtered by our conditioning. And it is the conditioning, the idea that something should be a particular way, that that causes the difficulty. When I was lawyering, I had another great mentor, Judge Gerald Cogan, who in Miami, during those days, in one building, there were 14 felony courtrooms, and on Monday, all of the cases for the week would Have to appear and be assigned days or continued or or pled out or something, but all of the defendants and all of the lawyers and all of the people that were involved had to be there. It was packed solid each courtroom. The air conditioning couldn't even keep up with the body heat. It was like a war zone, except for one, Judge, cogan's his his courtroom was like an oasis. And so I went and I asked him once, I said, Judge Cogan, you know, do you have less cases than everybody else? He goes, No. Matter of fact, I have more. I'm the administrative judge, so I have a greater like. Out. I said, Have you ever walked around here on a Monday morning? It's crazy. Your courtrooms like, Okay, how do you how do you account for that? And he said, Well, Bob, it's like this. If you want to pick an apple off the tree and it's not ripe, you're going to pull it and twist it and struggle and yank and it'll finally come off. And it's going to be sour. If you wait too long, it's going to drop and rot. But if you pick it at the right time, it comes off easy and it's sweet. I think that I just have a sense of not letting my ego get in the way and being feeling like I have to contest with some lawyer who's asking for a continuance. I just have a better sense of when a case needs to be tried and when it needs to be continued. And that is, you know, part of it. So to use the apple metaphor, if my conditioning tells me that I need this apple now and it's not ripe, my life is going to be very difficult. It's not that the apple is causing the problem. It's that my idea, that I need it now, is causing the problem. I haven't recognised the flow, and so I'm not aligning with it. So that's kind of like where meditation comes in as as an assistance to learning and becoming sensitised to the flow, because in meditation, we learn to be more present and it's, it's, it's really hard to recognise The flow, recognise the energy that's in the situation around you. If you're ruminating about things in the past or projecting, you know, and catastrophizing things in the future, if you're not here right now, it's hard to feel what's going on. So meditation helps you learn to be more present, and it also helps you to learn to be more sensitive. But most importantly, it reveals to you the conditioning that's been opposed on you. And one of the things it teaches you is that it you can't make the conditioning go away. You can't force it to go away, which most of us want to do, but you can let it go away. And meditation teaches you how to do that, to let it go, not to make it go, but to let it go. And so the two kind of work hand in hand.

Agi Keramidas: 18:04

I'm glad you. You bridged it very beautifully, because I was about to ask you with about meditation. You, you said, reveals the it reveals the conditioning and it's, it's the question that comes to mind when I hear this kind of description of what a benefit of meditation is, is, do you recommend or suggest some particular technique of meditation that is perhaps better suited to develop or to experience that rather than others. Techniques,

Bob Martin: 18:48

yes, I do. I mean, there are many, you know, different I'm asking, yeah, but the basic instruction, I suppose, in meditation, what we call is Vipassana or Tibetan, insight meditation. I think that would be the best word to use. Insight meditation is what I teach, and it's not a mantra, and it's not transcendental, and you don't go somewhere. It's it's simply, well, let me explain. Let me, let me suggest it this way. Have you ever been listening to somebody and all of a sudden you're not listening to them anymore because you're thinking about whether you left the stove on, yes. And then all of a sudden your brain kind of says to you, hey, Agi, you're not listening to the guy. And all of a sudden you go, Oh, I'm not listening. Oh my. And then get a flood of judgments. And got think, how am I gonna get him to say it again without letting him know? Blah, blah, blah. But then. Go back and you listen to them again. Well, that's what meditation is. That's exactly what meditation is, except for the fact that you do it intentionally, instead of letting it just happen, and therefore you notice what's going on more. So the instructions are, form the intention to put your attention, say on your breath or a candle, and then in three seconds, your mind is going to wander. It's going to go awesome place. And that's because, evolutionarily, when we lived in the jungle, we were always scanning for danger, and we are constructed for our minds to wander and scan that that's how we evolved. That's the animal that we are. So it's completely normal. So when people say, Oh, I can't sit still, because my mind goes, well, yeah, that's what happens. But then at some point, your mind goes, Hey, you said that it was your intention to pay attention to the candle. You, oh, you kind of wake up. That waking up is the moment of mindfulness. It's not paying attention to the candle. It's waking up when your mind wandered. And then you remind yourself, then you have the flood of judgments. So now you get to observe your judgments. And after you do this several times, you kind of get bored of them, and they kind of go away on their own, without forcing them to go away. And then you begin again. And every time you begin again, you're forming a neural pathway in your brain that says, I can do this. I'm capable, I can begin again. I can fail, and I can begin again. And that helps us develop a tolerance for discomfort, which gives us the ability to risk more and learn more and grow more and as we go through this process, so it's not about quieting the mind, it's not about calming the mind or having white noise. It's about beginning again, failing and beginning again, failing and beginning again, failing and beginning again. And we do it in this safe place where nothing's at risk, but it gives us the ability to train ourselves to go into the real world and fail and begin again, you know, and, and, and and try and experiment and have you know ideas notice, so we develop all these skills.

Agi Keramidas: 22:33

And I think great benefit of being able to have this moment of mindfulness, as you you called it that waking up from the the mental the internal dialogue. I think once you experience that over and over again, then you can utilise it or bring that awareness at some point when you are not on your cushion, meditating, when something happens in life and you rather than reacting immediately out of the conditioning, as you were saying earlier to you know, waking up for a moment to Be present in the moment. I think it's so useful,

Bob Martin: 23:23

so useful. It is, like you say, if, if the only thing that meditation was good for was sitting on a cushion, it wouldn't be worth it. It wouldn't be worth the time and the effort you got to bring it into your life, and so what? So we all have all experienced, I believe we've all experienced being in a conversation, and even as we're speaking and saying one thing, there's a part of our brain that's evaluating it's saying, Oh, this isn't going well, or I can't wait till I get to the punch line, or, Oh, I think I forgot the punch line. And so there's this part of our brain that's commenting on us, even though while we're speaking. Now, when we when that just happens of its own accord, it just happens. It's not very helpful. But when we pay attention to that other voice, the commenting voice, when we pay attention to it, what we find is that from that place in our mind, there's a certain stability. It's not thrown by emotions as much. So going back to the river metaphor, so there's a stream of consciousness, and there are leaves and logs. Those are our thoughts, and it's like we're holding on to a log floating down the river, and then we go into the white water. Or then we go for a waterfall, and all of life is affecting us. And of course, we're emotional about it. But that other part, the part that comments, as we begin to become more familiar with that and intentionally pay attention to it, we begin to reconnect with it. And, you know, depending on you know, your your perspective, if you're, you know a psychologist, you might call it your intuitive mind or your authentic self. If you're spiritual, you might call it your soul. But whatever it is, when we pay attention to it, and we reconnect to it, we find that we can watch ourselves on the log in the river from that place of being the observer, and as the observer, there's a certain stability of Mind and a certain peacefulness of mind, even even as I'm getting angry, even as I'm feeling grief, even as I'm feeling joy, I am still observing it from another place at the same time, and from that place that's when people talk about peace and tranquillity. It's not that I have removed myself from the ups and downs of life. It's just that I've found another place where, at the same time, I can be more stable. And so to give you an example, just the other day, I was in the grocery store, and I was in a big rush. I had to get to class, and, you know, so I was in a big rush, and I had a couple of things, and you're looking at the different cashier lines trying to find the shortest one. And I see a lady, she's got two of, like, five or six items in a basket. And I said, Oh, she's gonna be quick, so she goes up, and as soon as she gets to the cashier and I'm behind her, I'm gonna rush, and she opens up a three ring binder with a bunch of coupons. I go, Oh no, oh no. So you know, I, you know, you have a choice. You can either sit there and grumble and be upset or pay attention to my breathing. Just go into that, you know, just go back and and be the observer and watch myself getting anxious and watching myself being antsy. So, um, the ants in this, you know, just becomes something I'm watching, and that's where I'm coming from. So that's, that's how you take it into your everyday life, and you notice what you're doing, and you notice when you say something that didn't work very well. So maybe the next time you'll say it different, or maybe the next time or the next time, it's all good.

Agi Keramidas: 28:06

I like that very last comment about the next time or the next time because it a it implies that there is a journey there, rather than something that is achievable and as a result, and from there on, it is something different. Bob is this is a wonderful conversation. Thank you very much for the wisdom that you shared. And there is I mentioned already that that story, with that metaphor, with the swimmer coming out of the sea, is, I believe it is incredible to pawn this on. And you know, really think about reflecting on one's life. Perhaps, could

Bob Martin: 28:56

I add one little thing? Absolutely, yes. So most of us are familiar with the symbol of the tai chi, the black and the white. Yes, there's the black with the white dot and the white with the black dot. Most of us don't understand what that symbolises. So the black.is the black.is Yin and the white field is Yang. So the seed of Yin is in Yang, and that seed is going to grow and Yin will take over Yang, just as Yang will take over Yin, and Black will turn to white, and White will turn to black. And so the symbol is that the natural way of the universe is that day turns to night, night turns today, summer turns to winter, and that everything cycles. And what we human beings don't connect to in that metaphor is that good times and bad times also cycle. And times. That work, and times that don't work also cycle. And so having patience and waiting for the change in energy is what Taoism is all about, and what that symbol reflects. And so it is. It is the symbol of the tide.

Agi Keramidas: 30:22

Yeah. You said in the very beginning of the conversation, there was the phrase interfering the list, and that's with with that. So thank you very much, Bob. Let me ask you, you have a meditation course, and I want to ask, where do you want to direct a listener that has found this wisdom illuminated and wants to follow and learn more?

Bob Martin: 30:50

Well, I have a website, and it's called a wise and happy life.com All one word, a wise and happy life.com and on it, I have a couple of ebooks that I've written. They've got plenty of illustrations, and they're fun, about 40 pages, and they're free and downloadable. And it's a you know, what is meditation? Is it? For me, some 25 relaxation tips. Is another one. And shortly, I'm going to be putting on some self assessment quizzes. Everybody loves those, you know. How much do you know about meditation? You know? What do you think about, you know? So, so there's a lot of fun stuff and a lot of downloadable videos and stuff. And also, if you're interested in my courses, of course, you can inquire about that, and I'm available for a 15 minute phone call. You can just contact me through the website.

Agi Keramidas: 31:51

Thank you, and I like very much the the fun tone that you put in that, because for many people, the meditation is something serious, like Bob, I have two final quick questions for you that I ask all my questions. And the first one is, what does personal development mean to you

Bob Martin: 32:16

becoming who you really are?

Agi Keramidas: 32:22

And hypothetically speaking, if you could go back in time and meet your 18 year old self, what's one piece of advice you would give him?

Bob Martin: 32:33

My 18 year old self was a pretty arrogant football player. You know, to tell you the truth, I don't think there's anything that I could say to my 18 year old who would take it and use it. Yes, you have to be weathered a little bit before it all makes sense. But if I could say anything at all, I would say, just remember that every day of your life, you're trading a day of your life for that day. So, you know, make it leave. And all that you're gonna leave in that day is whatever you leave in it. So leave something good in it.

Agi Keramidas: 33:18

Very wise. That is profound. It did. Thank you, Bob, I want to thank you very much for this conversation, because I learned many things, I took a lot of notes, and I really appreciated the way that you describe these concepts with stories, because they are so relatable and very useful to you know to use as reflection. I will leave it to you for your final part in wisdom to the listeners,

Bob Martin: 33:55

you have a responsibility to beauty the world throws so much, pardon my expression, so much crap at us, that it is constantly stimulating our flight fight response. The thing that ameliorates our fight flight response is our rest and digest, our connection, our sense of spirituality. And they occur in different parts of the brain. Beauty stimulates the other side of the brain and balances off the crap that the world sends at us. We have a responsibility to intentionally bring beauty into our lives on a regular basis. Otherwise, we go down the rabbit hole. Home.

Agi Keramidas: 34:40

I hope you have found this episode enlightening. If you've been resonating with these conversations and feel like you are at the crossroads in your life, I offer private one to one coaching to help you gain clarity and step into your next chapter with confidence. If that sounds interesting, reach out to me and let's chat, and until next time, Stand out. Don't fit in.