The Hidden Emotional Traps of Career Change No One Talks About, with Michelle Schafer | #572

Agi Keramidas (0:00)
If you are feeling stuck in the in-between of a career change, questioning your direction or struggling with doubt and overwhelm, then this episode is for you. Welcome to Personal Development Mastery, the podcast helping midlife professionals in transition turn uncertainty into clear direction and confident next steps. I am your host, Agi Keramidas.
Join us every Monday for in-depth conversations with experts and every Thursday for shorter solo episodes with insights and tools you can use. This is episode 572. If you are looking to navigate a career transition, this conversation explores how to manage uncertainty, gain clarity and take practical steps towards work that truly fits you.
Before we start, if you are a midlife professional ready for change, I offer one-to-one coaching to help you get clear on what's next and create a realistic plan forward. As a former dentist who has made this transition myself, I know how challenging this can feel. To explore this, visit personaldevelopmentmasterypodcast.com slash mentor. That's personaldevelopmentmasterypodcast.com slash mentor. The link is in the episode description. Now let's begin.
It is my pleasure to speak with Michelle Schaeffert. Michelle, you are a two-time restructuring survivor turned career coach, drawing on 25 years across HR, learning and community roles. You have guided nearly 1,000 professionals in finding work that truly suits them. You are passionate about helping people do work that gives them energy and aligns with what they believe. Michelle, welcome to the show. It's just a pleasure to speak with you today.

Michelle Schafer (2:17)
Thank you so much, Agi. And thank you so much for having me today.

Agi Keramidas (2:21)
I'm looking forward to having a conversation that I believe it's very relevant to people listening that are in career transition in different stages. Maybe they are just about to, or they are in the thick of it, or towards the end of it. But I think I'm looking forward to exploring some things with you today and giving practical things as well, much more than the concepts of that. Absolutely. What I would like to start, I would like to start with a part or an element, if I can say, of your own journey. And you talk about the seed of coaching in your own transition. So what was the time or was it a moment that that seed actually grew roots or you realized that this is something different? Was there any inner shift that happened?

Michelle Schafer (3:30)
Absolutely. That's such a great question. And it's interesting as a career coach, I love hearing the career stories of other people. But certainly, I have my own story. And so, as you mentioned earlier, Agi, I have experienced a restructuring twice in the course of my career. So I've lost my job twice. It hasn't been my choosing. I've needed to find something else. And I've reinvented myself into something different both times. The first time I reinvented myself from financial services to not-for-profit. But this seed that you're talking about really came when I was working in not-for-profit. I was working for a large national cancer organization here in Canada. And at the time I was working, a really good friend of mine, just out of the blue, said to me one day, I never understood why you didn't get into coaching as a career. Now, the context is this good friend of mine is a coach herself. And at the time that she mentioned it, I just said, you know what? I love my job. I mean, at that time, I was working with volunteers, supporting people living with cancer and families who are experiencing cancer, maybe even a new diagnosis. And I was working part-time. I had negotiated a full-time job to part-time so I could be at home with my boys who at the time were a lot younger. Now they're 16 and 18, but at the time they were a lot younger. And I just said to her, you know, the timing isn't right. I don't want to make a change. I actually really love my job. I love my schedule, all of that. But then if we fast forward from that time, about a year, I was restructured. So I was told that my job at this large national cancer organization was ending. And so I was in a position where I needed to find something new. And over the course of my career, I had always been coaching a little bit in different jobs, but I never had it as a main part of my job. Well, then when I lost my job a second time, the thing is I never forgot that seed that was planted by my friend, that seed that said, maybe you should explore coaching at some point in your career. So at that moment, I kind of thought it was like the universe was talking to me saying, you should really check this out. And so when I lost my job the second time, I started networking a lot. Now I was networking to find a new job, which obviously I needed to pay bills and whatnot, but I was on the side also networking with other coaches. And I wanted to learn from these coaches, why did they get into coaching? What are the rewards of coaching? What are some of the challenges that they experience? What do they help their clients with? What school did they go to to get their coaching certification? So I learned a lot from them. I never forgot that seed that was planted. And when I started talking to more coaches, I actually realized in those conversations, Agi, that this was something I wanted to do as a next step in my career. And so that story is so relevant, not just because it led me to coaching, but it's something that I share with my clients too. I share with my clients that if you're looking to explore a new career path, there's a lot of work involved. We're going to talk about some of the things that you need to do, but I'd like to think that every single thing that you do when you are exploring a new career path and transitioning careers, every step is like a planted seed in the ground. So Agi, I don't know if you like to garden. I know for me in the summer, I like to plant a vegetable garden. Tomatoes is one of the things I like to plant. Well, when you plant a tomato seed, it gets buried in the ground and you can think that nothing's happening until we see that sprout. But meanwhile, there's lots of growth happening under the surface. It's the same with a career transition. Every conversation we have, every job we apply for, every skill that we develop, every course that we take, they're all planted seeds. And eventually we're going to see that greenery sprout from the soil, which is a sign to us that our efforts are really working. And so thank you for asking about that because I really believe that everybody has those planted seeds, those things that people have shared. When you are experiencing a career transition, it's a great opportunity to remember what those things are and to start to act on it.

Agi Keramidas (8:22)
That's great. And thank you for this. And I will actually use this, what you said, exactly the metaphor about the seed in the ground that is growing, it's growing its roots, but at the outside, it doesn't seem like there is anything happening, even though there is invisible. Yeah. So what I wanted to ask in terms of this period in one's life that they are in a transition and a career transition and the seed is in there, the roots are growing, maybe we can feel some change, but visibly there is no sprout yet. So the questions, there are two things really that I would like to hear your thoughts about. One is this uncertainty. I will use this term, the period of uncertainty, because I don't see my seed going through. So naturally I will lose the, I will have this feeling of uncertainty. So let me ask this first. So how does one deal with that uncertainty in that period of time that, you know, the past is behind, the future is unclear, the fears are on?

Michelle Schafer (9:48)
Yeah, that's such a great question. And it's something that I see, I see a lot of individuals really, really wrestle with this when they are, when they are even just like thinking about something new, they're actually going through, you know, some of the activities to find a new path. And I think the first thing is that I see a lot of people have some pretty solid expectations about how long it might take to find something new, which feeds this uncertainty. It feeds the questions about what's happening, is anything happening? When will I find something new? It seems to be taking forever. And, you know, one of the things that I'll say, I'll say, first of all, to people is this is not your forever place. So this period of time right now, it is, it is uncertain because there's lots of question marks. Where will I work? What will I be doing? What will my leader be like? How will I adapt to a new sector? Like if you're looking to make a big pivot, there's all these different questions. And so I say, this, this discomfort, this uncertainty, you're not going to be feeling this forever. You're not going to be looking for work forever. So even just acknowledging that can certainly help with those feelings. The other thing that I would say is when, when you're feeling all of the feelings and, and there's such a range of emotions, right, Agi, that comes with, you know, exploring something new, like, you know, there's the fear, as you mentioned, there's anxiety, there's overwhelm, there's frustration and discouragement, but there's also other emotions that we oftentimes don't dial into, but are part of the process, which is hope, opportunity, possibility, maybe even a bit of excitement and enthusiasm for trying something new. So, you know, I would, I would say to all of your listeners, embrace some of those other emotions that those are things that will happen. When you find something new, you are going to be excited. You are going to be enthusiastic. You are is just don't try to navigate all this by yourself. So it takes a village to do so many things in life takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to, you know, solve our problems. It certainly takes a village to, to look for new work and explore new paths. And so don't try to do it on your own, engage your network, talk to supportive people in your circle, people that you trust that you can share some of these, you know, these fears and, you know, questions about the uncertainty, do things with others, do things for yourself too. You know, when, when we're looking for something new, it's really easy to kind of plunge into all of the activities. And then we get lost in it. We've, we forget what we need for ourselves. So make sure every day to do something that feeds your soul. Something that gives you joy. It could even be five minutes of something. Maybe for you, you like to, I don't know, walk in the woods or you like to, you know, read in your sunroom, or maybe you just want to have a coffee in peace and quiet and not have any other distractions, put your phone away and things like that. Whatever it is, do something for yourself every day. And that can, it doesn't take away the uncertainty. It doesn't take away the fears. It doesn't make a new job appear instantly, but it can help us cope with, you know, with, with, you know, just the process, some of the frustration and overwhelm that comes with exploring new career paths.

Agi Keramidas (13:54)
Thank you. And I liked the clarification in the end that it doesn't take away the uncertainty because the uncertainty is, it's not up to us to, to make it go away. It is how we manage ourselves during the uncertainty. Life will bring us periods of uncertainties, whether we like it or not.

Michelle Schafer
Yeah. We can't make people hire us, but we can make sure that we're caring for ourselves and engaging in the right mix of activities to help us find something new.

Agi Keramidas
I liked, and I will repeat just the outline of some practical things that you mentioned already. And the first was to consider the expectations that one might have of how long should this last, because I'm sure that everyone has a number in mind when, when they think of that period. And if I go back to the seed analogy, I suppose a tomato and a bamboo tree and different plants will have different periods that they could need. The other thing I liked from your answer was don't try to do everything on your own and utilize your network to supportive people to speak and connect and exchange ideas. The thing I would like to hear a bit more about Michelle, you mentioned about the range of emotions that one experiences during this period. And of course there are from those emotions like fear, overwhelm, anxiety, you said. And of course it is true that there are the positive hope, expectation or opportunities, et cetera. My question is how can one shift the emotional state when it really feels heavy and the fears are on or the anxiety or anything like that feels quite intense. How can one start to focus more on the positive emotions or the hope and what might lie ahead?

Michelle Schafer (16:18)
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question to explore. And, you know, I can think of it really having a few, like there's a few different elements there. One is, is even just to ask yourself, if I did nothing to change my career right now, what would that mean for me? So if, you know, for somebody who is looking to explore new paths, there's a reason. The reason might be that maybe their work is not energizing them anymore. Maybe there's been big changes in their organization and their values don't really align with the leadership and the organizational values. And, and the combination of even those two factors alone can cause a lot of stress and anxiety for staying in a situation with making no changes. So in order to kind of activate or maybe get connected to, I would say, think to yourself, what if I make no change at all? What if I stay in my job? What if I stay with my current leader? What will that mean for me? What will that close down for me if I stay? And that's a way even of just, you know, activating the fact that, okay, there's something better for me. If I stay in this, I'm, I'm not going to be doing myself any favors. And that stress is just going to spill out into my family, my other relationships. None of that is positive. So thinking about what would happen if you stay is a way of activating that hope and possibility. The other thing, and this is a super quick and easy practical strategy that anybody can try on any given day, which is count your wins and write them down. So what I mean by that is when you're exploring a new career path, you know, we talked about the planted seeds, every conversation, every job you apply for, we might not see the benefits of that for a little while. But the reality is these are things that you're actually doing. So if you reached out to somebody new to have a coffee with them, that's a win for that day, write it down, post it somewhere that's really visible for you so that you get a reminder of that win. Maybe you created a new headline for your LinkedIn profile. Maybe you actually applied for a job. Maybe you updated your resume. Maybe you just did some real reflective thinking one day about what's important to you and what you might want. Any of those things individually are wins. Sometimes we think of the win as being, oh, I found something new. I'm going to be working for another organization. I've got another job. Hooray, that's my big win. And of course, that's the biggest win of all. But there's all those steps along the way that we can celebrate. And if we make, you know, it's kind of like the gratitude practice. You know, you can sit down and write down three things that you're grateful for every day. Well, I'd encourage all of your listeners to write down three wins, things that you've done to support your transition that are leading you in a new direction. And just by acknowledging them, it's a little celebration for ourselves when we acknowledge them, when we post them, it's a visible reminder. Those are ways that we can stay motivated in our transition and really get connected to some of that possibility that can dive under the surface when we're feeling really frustrated.

Agi Keramidas (20:10)
You said there is something else that I wanted also to hear your thoughts about. Something else that happens to people that are in transitions of this kind, and that is a dip in the confidence for many reasons. Could be because there is a feeling that I failed in the previous role because, you know, I chose to leave it, I didn't like it or I got laid off or whatever it might be. Or it could be confidence related to, you know, what we were saying earlier about uncertainty that can also erode someone's confidence. So I would like to hear your thoughts on that. And again, some actionable, some practical things that the listener can do to increase their confidence in that messy and uncertain time of a transition.

Michelle Schafer (21:10)
Yes. This is something that I do see with a lot of individuals who, you know, who are really struggling to find something new. They know that staying in their current situation is not tenable for them. So they are exploring something new, but then, you know, there’s a lot of reasons that the confidence shifts and dips. So for some people, maybe they've been in the same job in the same organization for a long time and they haven't had to look for work. And the reality is looking for something new is different now. So, you know, the old strategy of maybe sending a few resumes out and getting a job, it just doesn't work now. We're in a totally different reality where, you know, artificial intelligence is playing a role in the recruitment process and how we apply for jobs. The sheer volume of people who are in transition right now is staggering. I mean, Agi, there are some jobs that, you know, over a thousand people will apply for, which is really, really different than in past years. So people might be feeling that loss of confidence because they haven't had to look for work for a while. They might also be feeling it because maybe, maybe they're older and they don't feel like their skills are a good match for other roles. So they may be hesitant to explore something new. There, there's so many reasons why that confidence will dip. So, you know, there's, there's strategies to really help to build the confidence. And I like to think of, you know, embarking on any career transition as having a strategy. And in fact, we can, you know, we can bring in another, another analogy, which is exploring new paths and looking for new work is a lot like going on vacation. Now it's not as much fun, full stop. Let's, we'll put that out there. But the elements that are the same is, you know, if you were going to, I don't know, let's say Rome, Italy, you would, you would need to, first of all, know that you're going to Rome. You need to have a destination. Well, the same goes when you're looking for new work, you need to have a career target. You need to have a destination of where you're actually heading. And the same goes when you're on vacation. If I was going to Rome, I wouldn't just show up. I would have a plan. I would know where I was staying, how I was getting around. If there were certain attractions, I wanted to see, I'd get tickets in advance. Well, if we draw that to exploring new paths and being in transition, you also need to have a strategy and you need to have a plan. So what will give people confidence is first of all, knowing a little bit more about what that career target is going to be. And there's some really practical ways that you can get closer to knowing what that is. And I like reflection, Agi. I think it's really important to hit the pause button and take a step back and really reflect on what's important to you. So you can ask yourself three key questions that will help you get closer to what that target is. The first is get really honest with what work really gives you energy. So what I'm not talking about here are things that feel like obligations. They're really draining. These things might be things that you're known for, but they don't give you any excitement or joy. Those are things you want to do less of. So think about what are times in my career where I felt fired up about my work? What was I doing and why did that get me excited? So that's question number one, which is going to lead you to a new possibility, doing more work that gives you energy. Question number two is everything about the organization. What kind of environment can I be most successful in? So that's everything from the organization's mandate, their values, the kind of leaders that this organization employs, what kind of team members does this organization employ? You want to make sure that you're aligning yourself with an organization that I like to say believes what you believe in, that there's a real deep values alignment. So that's question number two, everything about the organization. Question number three is at this time in life and in this time in my career, what are my deal breakers? What are my non-negotiables? These are the things that are so deeply important to you that you would walk away from an opportunity if they weren't there. So when we reflect on those three things, we can start to intentionally seek out opportunities that align with those. So that takes care of the target. When we know in what direction we're intentionally heading, that can give us confidence. Part number two to that is about the plan. And what I see people do when they're in transition, Agi, is they just send out hundreds and hundreds of resumes all over the place, which gets them how many interviews? Zero interviews because it's a very unfocused approach. And that drains the confidence too. So build a plan, have a strategy for your exploration. And I like to think of a plan as having three elements. Looking online is certainly one and applying for jobs, but that's only 20% of your effort to find something new. The remaining 80% are on the other two parts of the strategy. Number two, align yourself with recruiters, reach out to them, build relationships. Recruiters hold the bag on all sorts of interesting possibilities. And number three, this is a big one, is networking. Reach out to your network, have one-on-one conversations, go and take people for coffee, find out about their role, find out about their company. You're going to learn about a lot of opportunities that way. So when we have a target and we have a plan, that can build our confidence in transition because we have a good idea of where we're heading and we are intentionally seeking out activities and actioning items that will get us closer to our goals.

Agi Keramidas (27:45)
Thank you, this answer also answered my another question that I had when that was about, you know, gaining clarity in when with that. But your answer via this clarity, confidence also will come. So it is, I just made a note of it because clarity via the strategy in the plan that you said, it certainly leads the way rather than not knowing where we're going. Michelle, this has been a wonderful conversation. I liked very much the the practical elements that you shared, because I think someone listening that is in this situation can find a lot of things that they can do. So I appreciate that very much. Where would you like to direct the listener who would like to find more about you and your work? And I understand you have a book.

Michelle Schafer (28:52)
I do. It's been so exciting. My book is called cultivating career growth, navigating transitions with purpose, completely a fit for the topic that we're talking about today. And so my book is available on Amazon. And it is a part strategy and part workbook, which means that as you're reading through, you're learning about what's needed to explore new career paths. And you're also given an opportunity to write down your notes. So then you're actually building your plan, your strategy as you go along. So the book can be an excellent resource to help you navigate your next transition. And even just to ask yourself some key questions to give you that clarity. The other place that that you can find me is on my website, mschafercoaching.ca. I have lots of information on there. I have a free chapter to my book, which I'm going to share with your listeners. So you can kind of try before you buy. The other thing that's available on my website, and I'll make this available to your listeners as well, Agi is, is a free resource that I offer called a career focus framework. And so we talked a little bit about asking those questions to gain clarity on where you want to go next. This framework is a fillable PDF, it's going to ask you a number of different questions that all relate to, you know, keys to career fulfillment for yourself, which you can save and you can refer to as you're building out your plan. So I'm going to give all those resources to your listener, lots of lots of good information in there.

Agi Keramidas (30:32)
Thank you very much. And Michelle, before I, before we conclude, I also have two last questions I always ask. The first one is, what does personal development mean to you?

Michelle Schafer (30:47)
That's such a great question. You know, personal development, I would say is, is something that is obviously personal for you. And when I, I'm going to make a distinction there, it's, it's not development for, you know, to meet the needs of other people. It's really getting a good idea of what you want to do for yourself. I've worked with many clients, Agi, who are in careers because their family is one of them to be there. They've taken courses and certifications and degrees even because, you know, they've been encouraged to do that, but they didn't want to do it for themselves. So I would say, you know, personal development is really connected to clarity. It's really getting a good sense on what's important to you. And then it's putting, you know, a plan into place. It's, you know, making sure that you have a strategy so that you're engaging in the right activities. And I would say personal development also is, is over the course of your life. I mean, we're, we're never done developing. You know, as long as we're living, we're always developing and learning. So, you know, make this a lifelong activity and it can take you to some really interesting places.

Agi Keramidas (32:04)
And the hypothetical question, if you could go back in time and meet your 18 year old self, what's one piece of advice you would give?

Michelle Schafer (32:13)
Oh my goodness. I would say it's use your network more. Like really get connected to people who can help you. And I'm going to even offer, this is a quote from a friend of mine that I met in a networking group years and years ago, and it's look through your network, not at it. Meaning every person that we know, knows hundreds of people. Engage those hundreds of people that each of our friends and our, our connections know. And this is something that I've seen even with my teenage boys, Agi. So, you know, I've helped them as they've navigated, you know, looking for work and they've all realized the role that their network plays in helping them find something new. And I didn't know that as my 18 year old self, I didn't have any concept of that. So use your network, look through your network and, you know, it will be interesting to see what comes from there.

Agi Keramidas (33:13)
That's a great piece of advice. I think for most people, not just the 18 year olds to, I liked how you said, look through your network rather than at your network. Michelle, I want to thank you very much for this insightful conversation we had and to wish you the very best with the next thousand people that you will help them to find this energizing and aligned next careers. I will leave it to you for your part in words and any last message to the listeners.

Michelle Schafer (33:48)
Absolutely. I mean, thank you so much for this conversation. It's such a relevant topic and, you know, I think your listeners will really benefit from just, you know, knowing maybe some new strategies that will help them in transition. I guess as parting words, maybe I'll, you know, I'll bring forward, you know, something that, you know, I shared, it was much earlier, but it's so relevant really, which is this is not your forever place. Like if you're feeling uncomfortable, discouraged, frustrated, questioning yourself, you're feeling that confidence dip, know that you're not going to be feeling this forever. Hopefully, you know, all of your listeners will take away even just one new strategy to help mitigate some of those feelings. But to know that you will find something new, you, chances are you will find something even better than what you're leaving. I've seen that happen lots. It certainly happened for myself. And just to know that that possibility is there for you. It's, I really, really believe that everybody believe that everybody can find work that energizes them for companies that believe what they believe in. That's my why. That's why I do this work. And that's my wish for all your listeners as well.

Agi Keramidas (35:07)
Thank you for listening to this conversation with Michelle Shaffer. I hope it has given you a fresh perspective on how growth is still happening beneath the surface, even when progress is not yet visible. If you are a midlife professional in a longstanding career, ready for a change, I offer one-to-one coaching to help you get clear on what's next and create a realistic plan forward. As a former dentist who has made this transition myself, I know how challenging this can feel. To explore this, visit personaldevelopmentmasterypodcast.com slash mentor. That's personaldevelopmentmasterypodcast.com slash mentors. The link is in the episode description. Until next time, stand out. Don't fit in.