Join me as I chat with professional presence expert, Katherine Lazaruk, as we explore the impact of accurately representing ourselves externally on our cognitive and interpersonal growth. We reflect on Katherine's upbringing, her transition from a 12-year career in opera and teaching to image consulting, and the pivotal moments that shaped her journey. Tune in to hear how Katherine's experience in the opera led to her understanding of the importance of harmony between our clothing and who we are.
Katherine and I also discuss the fascinating science behind dressing for success, from experiments at the Kellogg Institute to the effects of clothing on testosterone levels. We explore how standards of dress have changed since the pandemic and how we can accurately represent ourselves externally through factors such as clothing. Katherine also provides practical advice and suggests free online resources to get you started on your journey of self-representation.
𝗞𝗘𝗬 𝗣𝗢𝗜𝗡𝗧𝗦 𝗔𝗡𝗗 𝗧𝗜𝗠𝗘𝗦𝗧𝗔𝗠𝗣𝗦
0:00:00 - Personal Development And Presence Power
0:04:07 - Transitioning Careers And Following Personal Passion
0:09:11 - Personal Presence And Authenticity Importance
0:10:49 - Understanding Emotions and Inner Awareness
0:15:12 - How To Create Harmony With Your Appearance
0:20:00 - The Look Good Feel Good Principle
0:21:05 - Clothing's Influence On Performance And Perception
0:33:23 - Navigating Crossroads in Life
“Stop listening outside for people to tell you who you are, you know who you are. Get in touch with your heart and get in touch with what you know to be true.”
𝗔𝗕𝗢𝗨𝗧 𝗧𝗛𝗘 𝗛𝗢𝗦𝗧
I am Agi Keramidas, a podcaster, mentor, and knowledge broker. My mission is simple - to inspire you to take action towards a purposeful and fulfilling life.
Get your free copy of my first book:
Please note that while an effort is made to provide an accurate transcription, errors and omissions may be present. No part of this transcription can be referenced or reproduced without permission.
Katherine Lazaruk 0:00
The universe's kind, it will tap you on the shoulder, it will give you a little nudge, it will nudge it a little harder than it'll give you a push and then it'll hit you in the face with a two by four and then it'll run you over with a truck. So like decide how far do you want to go down the road? Before you actually listen.
Agi Keramidas 0:19
Welcome to the personal development mastery podcast empowering you with the simple, consistent actions needed to master yourself and create a life of purpose and fulfilment. I'm your host Agi Keramidas. And my mission is simple to inspire you to take action towards a fulfilling life. In this podcast, I invite myself inside the minds of remarkable people and I distil their wisdom for you. So if you're ready to find practical insights that you can implement right now, make sure you follow the podcast and get the episodes as soon as they are released. Speaking of insights, would you like a free copy of my first book 88 actionable insights for life. Just over a year ago, I started writing a book based on the conversations with these remarkable people ahead during this podcast. I am thrilled that the book is now finished and you as my listener can get it exclusively before the official book launch. And for free, go to agikeramidas.com/88
Agi Keramidas 1:30
And coming to today's episode, if you would like to discover how you can increase your confidence and success by consciously aligning your external image with your internal self, then the following conversation with my guest, Katherine Lazaruk is for you. By the end of this podcast today, you will find out how accurately representing yourself externally through factors like clothing and appearance can impact you cognitively and in your interactions with others. And what's more, let's dive right in. Today, it is my real pleasure to speak with Katherine Lazaruk. Katherine, you are a professional presence expert who helps leaders in their teams walk the walk, talk the talk and look the part. You're passionate about achieving gender parity in your lifetime and about helping get more women into senior leadership faster. Katherine, welcome to the show. It's such a pleasure to speak with you today.
Katherine Lazaruk 2:39
Thank you very much for having me. I'm really glad to be here.
Agi Keramidas 2:42
I'm looking forward to our conversation Catherine and today's way I would like to focus on about how once presence can be used as both a vehicle for and expression of personal development. And before we go there, give us a little bit of background and in specific what I would was looking for is those key defining moments when once life really changes.
Katherine Lazaruk 3:15
Okay, I've had a few of those over the course of my 30 some years, of course, yeah, it's much easier to see those defining moments in hindsight, isn't it when you are looking back on how it's like, how did I get here. And for me, it's very interesting, because I think I was shaped by my sort of the soul kind of what I got what I arrived with for free, which is very artistic kind of free, kind of a wild soul, and having very pragmatic parents. And so I think some of that was shaped, you know, my desires for my career and things like that were shaped by that sort of thing. So, you know, 100 years ago, when I finished my degrees, I did degrees in music and an education. And my parents were like, Okay, you need a real job. Now, the real job is can't possibly be an opera singer forever. That's that doesn't happen. And so I went into teaching, and I was doing both I was singing professionally the opera and teaching. And both of those, I didn't realise this. But the further along I got in both of those careers, the less I liked them because they both have quite small, narrow parameters. And I'm not a very good small box person, but I didn't know that then. So it took me 12 years and a lung tumour to figure out that these jobs were suffocating me they were not for me, at least not in the way that I was practising them and they weren't really feel a great fit. So when I was diagnosed, I thought it gave us some serious wake up call. And I need to focus on my health. And my husband actually said at the time he says you need to let go of these jobs. They're suffocating you literally. And I'm a big believer in the mind body connection piece of those things. So having that manifest was pretty startling. but not surprising, if that makes sense. And so I left I didn't know have any plan, I didn't know what I was going to do. I went to medical leave. And then I left my teaching job. And it was a steady like, secure job. And six months later, the tumour was gone. And I had a job in corporate training at PricewaterhouseCoopers, which is one of the big accounting firms, sort of professional services firms in the world. And during that time, I started working with a coach because I had never really, like I've been had, I had music teachers and coaches that way, but I've never had a business coach of any kind. And so I started working with a coach or a life coach of any kind. And he basically leaned back in his desk one day, he's kind of an alpha male. It was like, hey, we want to be when you grew up, little lady. And today, I don't talk to me like that you're fired. But at the time, I laughed, and I literally had this vision and I, I'm, I'm a visual thinker, but I've never had a vision like this since and I had never had one before. But it was the first company name and the first tagline I ever used. And it was image consulting. And I was like, what, that's not even a real job. Who does that? What even is that? And he was great. He looked at me and he said, that's a real job, you could do that job. And I was like, okay, so I didn't know anything about it. And I don't know how much you know about that world of styling and fashion and personal presence and things. And so I thought, I don't know, I look alright, I've read some books, I'll get a website and some business cards and start practising. So that's what I did, which I don't recommend that approach to anybody. Now, please get some training, if you're gonna go into somebody's closet start poking around in their drawers, there's a lot more going on than clothes in the closet. So really get some training, if you want to do that. And I built my business up around my corporate training. And when my contract ended at PricewaterhouseCoopers, I got let go recession, I thought this is a great time to go full time. Which consulting business. And my husband told me a couple years ago, he said, Yeah, when you said you were gonna do that, I thought you were crazy. But I didn't say anything. And I'm glad of course, because here we are, many years later now. And it's I've been doing it for a long time. And I use that as the like, I wanted something that would use all my skill sets all the time, because I had a very, I do have that artistic sense. But I also have a pretty strong, practical bent, and I'm good at business. And I have good at numbers, like I'm aware of all those things. And I was doing producing, and I just wanted something that would use all my skill sets at the same time. And so the universe delivered in the form of this kind of business. And I struggled, and still sometimes struggle with the superficiality, like the surface nature of image work, because it is surface, but I believe that the surface is not superficial. In the sense that whatever is on the surface really needs to be a reflection of what is on the inside. So that was how I always approached my practice that was very much who are you as a person? And how do you want to express that to the world. And using your clothing using the way that you speak using your home using your vehicle using all the things in the material world to be creation and expression of self?
Agi Keramidas 8:18
And we'll go we'll get to that in a moment. I will just draw you back for a moment. There were a couple of quick questions that came to my mind when you are sharing your story. And the first one was, before you reach that final point where you were diagnosed, and you really knew that you had to change your life. Where there previously smaller messages that this need to change where you you know not in other ways before you had that really huge.
Katherine Lazaruk 8:56
Of course there were did I miss him? No. Did I allow the fearful voices that had been sort of instilled in me from my parents, you know, you need a steady job, you'd have to make a living like, well, of course, there was such there were signs I was I was not well suited for teaching, I would have conflict with peers, I would have challenges with like, I really liked kids. I think kids are amazing. And I liked the act of teaching. But the environment was so suffocating. And that's what frustrates me frustrates me the most about education systems is that we know so much more now about how people learn. And yet the systems have not changed in 100 years or more because they're still designed to create good factory workers, which is ridiculous. That's not what we need. Now. However, I'm you know, I'm not very good at just going into my classroom and closing the door and not paying attention to the larger environment. That's just not the way I am. So there was lots of conflict. It was yeah, it was not of course, there were signs you
Agi Keramidas 10:00
There is no way I was asking. The reason I'm asking that is that it's important for someone to understand someone listening to this to understand that if there are this small syncs, if they mean something, and we tend to ignore them. And I mean, I know I've been guilty of that many times ignoring the smaller syncs until they reach a higher level that it's impossible to ignore. So it's always better if we pay attention universities
Katherine Lazaruk 10:31
kind, the universe is kind, it will tap you on the shoulder, it will give you a little nudge, it will nudge it a little harder than it'll give you a push, and it'll hit you in the face with a two by four and then it'll run you over with a truck. So like decide how far do you want to go down the road? And getting whacked? Actually, listen, yes. And I'm pretty stubborn. So I just didn't, and I didn't know any better. It didn't understand that I could pay attention to that, that those things my emotions were, were informational. The conflicts that were happening around me were information, and I didn't just didn't really get it, I'm gonna get it now. But it didn't get then
Agi Keramidas 11:11
get if only people would generally be more aware of what's going on in their inner world. And that's, it's, it's part of what these conversations or the podcasts like this can help with for people to really pay attention to two inside
Katherine Lazaruk 11:33
what's Yeah, and, and further to that. It's about like the, the stuff that I coached now, still involves aspects of image because that is an aspect of our material world. But I'm looking more and more at what is presence. And I think you cannot be fully present unless you are whole. We've lived for a really long time and a very compartmentalised hierarchical, authoritarian, authoritative, you know, based on authority, system of leadership and management and well being in the world. And we're moving into this integrated and relational whole person place. And people are not equipped yet for that, because the people that did really well in their compartmentalised worlds are shutting off entire swaths of their emotional life, their their internal world, their personal life and becoming isolated, or being very successful. I know many people who, outwardly very successful and inwardly desolate. And that's heartbreaking. So when I talk about presence, now, I really pay a lot of attention with my clients, to them as a complete person. And being when I say being whole, I don't mean being perfect or being finished, because that's never going to happen. You know, but the consideration and the kindness and the generosity of giving yourself space to be human. And, you know, with the rise of AI, with the rise of other technologies, our humanity is going to be our greatest strength. And so the sooner people learn to hardest and live with and understand and sink into their humanity, the better off we're going to be. I'm working on a book right now, it's probably going to come out next year, kind of deal with a publisher in New York to write it. So I'm in the process of writing it now on this old personal presence concept.
Agi Keramidas 13:38
If you're enjoying this episode, you will find great value and implementable tools in my book 88 actionable insights for life. As my listener, you can get the book for free and exclusively before its official public launch, go to keramidas.com/ 88 for your free copy. And now let's get back to the episode I liked what you said give yourself space to be human. So I just repeating that it's so true, through let's relate this this presence that you are describing now to the image because I understand this kind of whole presents the way that you say you're being human or being your authentic self. I know that's not the word that you use. It's just mine, let's say interpretation of it. So but that's one thing and I understand that the muds though How is that connected to this kind of, of presence that you're talking about?
Katherine Lazaruk 14:49
It can be as connected or as disconnected as you want. It's a little bit like pulling a lever so if you want people to understand you faster to know you faster to Like to trust you to get to know you, then having your external representation be accurate, makes your life much easier. So I'll give you an example. When I first started my image consulting work, I was very interested in personal self expression. So it was all expression all the time, don't care about the rules were what you love, you know, just very, very expressive. And even after I got my training, which gives you some guidelines, in your personal appearance, so the idea is to create harmony with whoever you are, and whatever you're putting on your body. And so things like for example, your colouring, so matching your colouring with colours that like you as much as you like them, wearing things that suit your body, the lines of your body, like if you have a curvy body, it's good to wear soft things. If you have a straighter body, it's good to wear more structured things. Because they match, they go together, right? Help sort of calm your energetic field when things go together. And anyway, so I was really on this big self expression track. And I often found myself explaining to people a lot of the time they're like, Well, I don't want to work with you as an image consultant, because I don't like the way you look. Like, well, I want you to look like me, I want you to look like you. And I'm really good at helping people look like themselves. And so I would continue on this track, and I would get some pushback on it. And then I started working with a business consultant. In 2013, I think I got an office and I just was elevating my practice and getting more serious about the business. And I remember going into his office and I'm sitting at his boardroom, I've got my five subject killer, a spiral notebook, and a glitter pen and my funky chunky clothes. And as I'm so excited about getting started, he comes in and he looks at me, and he leaves the room says nothing leaves, comes back in with one of those nice moleskin notebooks with a bookmark and puts it on the table beside my homeboy subject five, you know, five subject spiral notebook and says, I want you to transfer all your notes from that into this. And I never want to see that on my table again. And I was so offended. I was like, What are you talking about? My clients love how practical I am and how down to earth I am. And he said, What kind of consultant Are you again, an image consultant, and he goes, we don't live in a vacuum. People will have certain expectations of you based on what you say you do. And because I was interested in doing more corporate work and things like that, I actually called a friend of mine, who's an image consultant in Ontario, in Canada, and I said, Hey, look, I'm stuck. I need some help. And she walked me through some of her processes. And she said, there's this element of elegant about you, like that sort of archetype. And I said, What are you talking about? Like, that's not, doesn't feel like it's true. And she said, Do you really like things to be finished, and you have a high level of attention to detail. And you're allowing your desire for comfort, which is high to override everything. So you're not as finished or polished as you really are? Are angling for, like your soul is calling for a little bit more of this attention to detail. And so I changed my wardrobe. Just that year, actually, I went kind of go and really invest in going to spend some money on nice clothes for myself and my body was really round, it's as round as it is now. And I was like, I'm just going to accept my body as it's round. And I'm going to buy some beautiful things. And I'm going to feel good in my clothes. And so I did that. And my business doubled that year. And all I had really done was change my appearance to more accurately reflect who I was as a person. And it's cyclical, because I'm going through the same thing again. So every five to seven years, people, not everybody, but many people will have this kind of Crossroads moment or an upheaval and it's and you need to then reevaluate, and you get down to a deeper layer, deeper layer of who you are. And then your expression ramps up again. So at the moment, I'm in the process of cleaning out my closet and looking at all the stuff that I had going this doesn't mean I have a lot of stuff don't fit me, because I've lost a lot of weight and things like that. And this, the linking between the two is I really think that if you are consciously using these image pieces to really express who you are, it can not only help you express it to other people, but it can help you iterate that to yourself. Right and you go through phases. So you're like okay, in that in that phase of my first phase, I was way more expressive, but not quite finished. And in this next phase I was really tightly finished. But now it doesn't feel the same because I don't feel that corporate and, you know, I want to be more artistic now. And so, yeah, it's and now it's this place again of where I'm re iterating and iterating again, I'm like okay, how is this next? Some level, going to be even more reflective of who I am and what I'm doing now. And it can be a lot of fun to align yourself in that way. And people don't think about that a lot. They're like, Oh, what difference does it make? Whatever. But there's a lot of like enclosed cognition studies on that embodied cognition, things that actually help your brain when you get in line. So that's why I think that it's nice to connect those two things together.
Agi Keramidas 20:26
It sounds fascinating the way you described it to Katherine and what I got there, and it really made an impression on me, you said, the accurate external representation, and you also use the word harmonii. Should the image been in harmony, or accurately expressing who you are. And I want to hear a bit more. You mentioned, the enclosed cognition, that's something that sounds very intriguing. So expand on this a little bit, for
Katherine Lazaruk 20:59
sure. It's the look good, feel good principle. The people often say, Well, if you look good, you'll feel good. And there wasn't necessarily hard science or any kind of science to back it up. And there were studies done several years ago now, at the Kellogg Institute, and there was Dr. O. Now his, his name is slipping my mind, maybe I'll get it to you, you can put it the show notes. But they did this study, where they wanted to figure out what the link was between what people felt about what they were wearing, what they thought about what it was that they were wearing, and then how they performed. So they did it, they used an experiment with lab coats. And what they did was they they talked to their some, so some of the subjects, they would take a test, then they would randomise control for the answers. And then they would get them put them in a lab coat and get them to take the test again. And across the board, they performed better when they were wearing the lab coat. But only if they did the interviews afterwards, only if they identified the people that were taking the test if they identify the lab coat with someone who was smart, like scientists were not coats, doctors were lab coats. So if I wear a lab coat, I must be smart. So cognitively, they were able to pick up their ability and do better the next time around on the test even though it wasn't the same test, they controlled for that. But they did better. Cognitively on the second test they did on the first now for those people who associated the white coat with like, more manual labour like an auto body worker or a factory worker, because those people also wear white coats, the effect was not there. So it was not only the garment itself, but also what the person thought about the people who wear those garments or their impression of it. So that was one of the experiments where they started to look at oh, what you put on your body actually makes a difference. And there was another experiment where they put men in suits, so that in negotiation, they wanted to see the impact of, of clothing on negotiation. So they had, they had a control group that just wore what they were wearing to the experiment. They had one group that they put them in sweats, you know, sweatpants and T shirts, and they had another group of men that they put in suits. And when they did that experiment, what they found was the men in suits gave up less ground in their negotiations, and negotiated quite a lot more on average, something like 1.2 million more dollars than a deal on average. And they also found that they produce more testosterone, but they were wearing suits. So sometimes when I'm giving talks to you know, audiences that are have a lot of men or male, representing people in them, I'll say, Look, if you want to produce or reproduce, you should probably get a suit. And what's really funny now is I'm wondering how those experiments will change, because, of course, things dress standards have changed quite a bit from the course of the pandemic. And now, I'm curious to see if it's going to rebound back to what we had before or if it's forever changed in terms of people's desire for comfort, and, and the breaking down of those in those constructs. Because everything is a social construct. Right. All the stuff that we do is a social construct. So I'm curious to see if we'll have opportunity to make new constructs and what that might look like.
Agi Keramidas 24:07
And certainly keep in mind about the increase in testosterone and I will I will try it out and see what effect it has and exotically what, let me know. There was something let's say someone listening to us right now finds this, what you said earlier about, you know, accurately representing externally, who they are as a person and they want to take one step and say, Okay, what is it? Am I representing myself accurately? Or am I not and if not, what's something that you know, I could do to get an idea anyway, I'm not asking a comprehensive list of steps. But some kind of action one can take to, you know, improve or make a change in this department
Katherine Lazaruk 25:10
to figure it out that there's a lot of things that you can do. And I often advocate getting help because of course, professional help is important in these areas. If you're not prepared to do that, which is totally cool. There are lots of free resources online for looking at image pieces. So we can do personality quizzes, you can look at representations of you can look up enclosed cognition, you can start doing some looking around to get external information on, you know, what does it look like if someone works in this field, and they're successful? What are they wearing? So you can do observation, there's someone that you admire, people in your field that you see, and they're getting really good results? Well, what are they wearing? How are they holding themselves? What are they doing that's making them successful in those areas. So it's an observational piece. The second piece is an internal sort of like an, you can do observational, you can also do informational, where you're going around doing research on on image, and how that can benefit you. And the third piece is the internal feeling sense. And the internal observations. So when I wear this, how do I feel when I wear this? How do I behave? When I wear this? How do other people respond to me? And do I notice a difference? And that's a great place to start just in the observational phase and experimenting a little bit. If I try this, how will people respond to me differently. I like to do it, I actually have a wig that I like to share because I love I love rainbow coloured hair like the soft unicorn pet, like people who colour their hair, really bright, vibrant, creative colours, I love that. And yet, it's not a good match for me regularly because my hair is too fine. And it doesn't wouldn't be able to hold up to the damage that that kind of colouring cause and because I like to sort of chameleon, like I like to be able to fly under the radar and like to be noticeable. I like to be able to have some variance. It's not something that I would consider doing permanently and my stylist would never let me she keeps telling me she's like, I'm not doing that for you. Because it's too much maintenance, you'll be bored, and it cost too much and don't do that. What she said to me, she said, Why don't you get awake made that has the colours that you want. And then whenever you want rainbow hair, you can wear rainbow hair. And I can only do that, you know, obviously when it's cooler right now, it's very hot here in Vancouver area. So I can't do it now. But it is fun to do it in in the cooler months when I'm wearing a wig out. And notice how people respond like people tend to perceive me then as more playful, they will be lighter. Like I can't describe it. It's sort of like an energetic, they're lighter. When they talk to me, they're more. Yeah, they laugh more, it's more friendly. Whereas if I'm dressed like up to the nines and the suits, they also respond, but it's a different kind of energy. So it's kind of fun to experiment. If you're curious about it, as anyone who's listening, if you're curious, try it out, try a few experiments. And then as you get more information. And you want like if you want to consciously apply principles to what you're doing, then I would encourage you to get some professional help. So there are and I would go for somebody who's certified, who has training behind them. So you can look at for example, the aici.org is the association of image consultants International. And you can search for someone in your area, you're welcome to contact me at ELS Anarchy consulting.com. And if I can't help you, then I can certainly refer you to one of my very excellent colleagues like in the UK where you are. You There are wonderful people, my friend Sarah brummett works there. She does a lot of professional presence work. Yeah, and in Australia, there's my friend Imogen Lamport, who runs an amazing blog, inside of style, chiefly focused on women. There's one of my friends in New York that runs a men's she specialises in men's styling, and another friend of Philadelphia. So yeah, there's lots of help out there. And the reason I say get professional help, and someone who's certified and experienced is because then they're able to remove their own bias from the equation a lot more easily than someone who doesn't necessarily have that experience. And they'll be able to see you and help you get what you want. Because there are definitely clients that I have where I would never wear what they wear. Right. But it's great for them. So that's really an important piece is for somebody that's helping you to be able to have that distance. Yeah, thank you.
Agi Keramidas 29:44
Thank you. Thank you, Katherine. It's been a truly intriguing conversation and there are I learned many things or some things I hadn't really considered in such a way before so I'm I'm very grateful for that. And there is also one thing You mentioned earlier how some people, you said go through five or seven years cycles, I am one of those people, and it's bang on my seven year cycle. So I'm wondering whether they image what we were discussing is something intuitive intuitively, it, it feels good, like it resonates the deeper level. So, thank you for this, you know, ideas that you brought. Today, I have a couple of quickfire questions to wind up, which I always ask my guests. And the first one is, what does personal development mean to you?
Katherine Lazaruk 30:42
I think it's the soul's work. That's why we're here. So personal development to me is as if you are extending out in all the directions to fill out the circle of your journey here. So you might develop yourself, physically, you might develop yourself emotionally, you might develop yourself spiritually, you might develop yourself in service, you might develop yourself in your contribution and value in your life there. It's it's about plumbing the depths, and soaring to the heights of the human experience, because my personal belief is that you're, you're a part of the Divine, whatever that means to you. Some higher energy force, and your job here is to like this is like university for really courageous souls, who want to learn some things. And you know, you sign all the contracts and get into the simulation, and start figuring things out. And so for me, the personal development is very much about paying close attention to who you are as a person, and putting that into the best possible highest use for this particular planet existence that we're inhabiting now.
Agi Keramidas 31:55
Thank you for this wonderful answer. And Let's hypothetically if let's say you could go back in time and meet your 18 year old self, what's one piece of advice you would give,
Katherine Lazaruk 32:09
she was so sweet, oh, my gosh, my 18 year old self, I would say stop listening to those fearful voices and get in touch with your heart and get in touch with what you know to be true. Because I believe that I have let the fearful voices of, you know, needing to be practical, as opposed to artistic get in my way for a long time. And I think actually, for me, my art is one of the ways that like it is possible to be an artist and earn money, right. And the limiting belief that I had for a long time, which was instilled by my parents, is that you're gonna be a poor, starving artist, if there's no other way to be an artist, except the poor and starving. I'm like, but I didn't know at the time, I didn't know anybody who was an artist. I didn't know anybody who was musician. I didn't know anybody who made their living by exercising that set of skills. And now I know many I know people who are songwriters. I know people who are musicians professionally, I know people who do musician, they're musicians part time when they do other things. So they have this combination of things. Because yes, you still need to be self supporting, and you need to be contributing, you need to pay your bills. And you can do that with art as well. It's not just through, you know, being a teacher, they said to me, they're like, be a teacher, be a nurse, be a lawyer. Those are like your three choices. Like get your degree. And I chose teaching. But really, it's it's not that I'm bad at it. I'm good at teaching, but I just didn't like the environment. And I think if I had told my 18 year old self say, Hey, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Stop listening to all stop looking outside for people to tell you who you are, you know who you are. So start paying more attention to that.
Agi Keramidas 33:51
Catherine, thank you very much for this truly intriguing conversation I had with you today. I want to wish you all the very best with your next steps. We whenever whatever they may be. Any last parting words?
Katherine Lazaruk 34:07
Thank you, first of all, for having me. And I always appreciate a good conversation. So it's been very nice to meet you and chat with you. I think for anyone else out there. Because you and I were talking before we started recording about the crossroads and that you are experiencing similar thing. We're both at a crossroads at this point in our lives going What are we going to do next? Like what were what we were doing doesn't quite fit. And we're not quite sure what's coming next. But we're both in it. And I think for anyone right now who's listening who's at a crossroads. I want you to really understand that it is okay to sit in the ambiguity of it. And just continue to you know, what do they say Before enlightenment chop wood carry water after enlightenment chop wood carry water. So if you're in the middle of the storm, it's okay to sit and not know what's coming next. You don't have to figure it out and be patient and spacious and something will happen. Some intuitive voice will come in you'll get Some signs someone will offer something that you didn't think about before. And that will help propel you forward. But it's okay to be still and Sidney ambiguity and you'll be okay. You'll figure it out. Just wait.
Agi Keramidas 35:16
This was episode 331. And before I leave you for today, a quick reminder, for the time being the podcast has one episode a week. It's Monday and not too. There are some exciting changes coming up in the podcast soon. So stay tuned. For the time being. Make sure you grab this exclusive opportunity to get my first book for free before its official launch. And my wishes for you that in this book to find that one new idea that you will implement into your life. Go to agikeramidas.com/88 for your free copy the link is in the show notes. Until next time, stand out don't fit in!